Education

(Pluck Duck/32014) Reading is fun!

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 23:54:00 -0600

Reading is fun!

(Gespalder/32013) This give a whole new meaning to education

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 02:35:00 -0600

This give a whole new meaning to education

Amazon terrorism book came with cocaine

A student from Olathe, Kansas, was shocked when she found a bag of cocaine
inside the textbook she'd ordered from Amazon. Sophia Stockton wasn't sure what
the white powder was. To be on the safe side she decided to take it to the
police who reassured her that it wasn't anthrax

(Yorick/32012) Does anyone have a good reference for a "philosophy of homework"...

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 14:29:00 -0600

Does anyone have a good reference for a "philosophy of homework"?

I'm asking for something you might find in a MEd course on
"effective pedagogy."

I've been paying attention to the homework my son's school sends home with the
kids, (mostly worksheets) and I have the following problems
with some of the material:

1.  It's not directly related, as far as I can tell, to the material covered in
class that day.  This alone is not necessarily bad, but the description of the
tasks required frequently references concepts or methods that are non-obvious
to kids.  If you send a piece of homework home that says "do this using the
<blank> method" and that method isn't described in the homework itself,
and there are no take-home textbooks, even assuming the <blank> method was
covered in class, how are my son and I supposed to know what that means?
This isn't something well known like "use the quadratic formula" it's
something like "use the cover-up method."

2.  Frequently they contain time-consuming steps that as far as I can tell
are designed to make the homework take longer.  An example was yesterday,
where he had some vocabulary homework.  Rather than just give word/definition,
it included a "decoding" step where the vocabulary word (actually, it
wasn't general vocabulary, see below) was encoded using a simple
substitution code, they key of which was given.  Cynically, my first
inclination is to believe that this step was just a time-waster--it didn't
involve any real thought, and it certainly wasn't clever enoughh that
you'd call it "fun."o

3.  The same assignment was not actually vocab in the general sense,
but names of various mythological creatures.  Again, this was material
that had not been covered in class, but also the questions were somehwat
ambiguous and the subtleties required more than a dictionary definition
for confidence.  Now, we happen to have a few different myth books, plus
reliable internet, but not all kids in his class have one or the other.
Most just have the internet.  Looking up "nymph" "naiad" and
"satyr" on the internet could lead to surprises.  Another was a
dictionary-skills assignment on guide words (which honestly I'm
not sure is of that much usefulness to a 10yo now, but OK) that
expected kids have a paper english dictionary on-hand.  No problem,
but it gave no direction that a dictionary was required, only
"write down the guide words for the following words" which (since
the material hadn't recently been covered in class) might lead
a kid to believe there was one "right answer" or that he's
expected to use a specific paper dictionary.

To me, homework should:
1.  Explain the desired task in a way that can be understood
without talking to school staff.
1.  Build on classrom lessons: either review, extend, or practice.
2.  Be concise, with most of the time spent learning or practicing the
primary goal of the lesson.
3.  If it requires or expects the use of external resources, say so.

Am I off base here?

(Pluck Duck/32011) Sounds reasonable.

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 12:20:00 -0600

Sounds reasonable.

(Salamano/32010) PD>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 11:09:00 -0600


PD>>

"Prove" was a bad choice of words on my part.  How about "are thought to be
beyond suspicion..." as an alternative?

(Pluck Duck/32009) I'm curious...how does one prove "beyond suspicion of having bee...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 09 Feb 2012 10:46:00 -0600

I'm curious...how does one prove "beyond suspicion of having been complicit in
any way, shape, or form"?

Honest question.

(Salamano/32008) Apparently, John Deasy sees things as I do, at least with respec...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 07 Feb 2012 04:31:00 -0600


Apparently, John Deasy sees things as I do, at least with respect to removing
all the teachers and staff from Miramonte Elementary School for the purpose of
conducting an investigation.

Now, my hope is that he doesn't go overboard in the other direction, by failing
to return teachers who prove to be beyond suspicion of having been complicit in
any way, shape, or form, to their classrooms as quickly as possible.

(Salamano/32007) While I wouldn't be swayed one way or the other on the basis of ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 16:41:00 -0600


While I wouldn't be swayed one way or the other on the basis of any
individual's experience, I do believe that there's a "Willie Sutton" phenomenon
at play, such that adults who obtain sexual gratification via the abuse of
children are going to be more likely to seek employment "where the children
are."  Ergo, a proportionately greater number of such persons are going to tend
to be concentrated in schools.  It would be foolish and irresponsible to
believe that these people don't exist, and aren't currently employed in our
schools, both public and private.  I'm certainly not advocating for the conduct
of witch hunts, just appropriate diligence and consequences.

(Yorick/32006) Pluck Duck>

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 14:16:00 -0600

Pluck Duck>

Sorry you don't believe me; I've no reason to be dishonest.  There's one
of the teacher/student pairs that I'm not 100% on, but otherwise I trust
my sources.  We're talking about many different schools over a spread of
30 years or so.  I'd love to believe that in a district the size of
LA Unified, inappropriate sexual behavior on the part of staff was
a rare happening, but I start from the assumption that at least at the
middle/high school level it's more common than not.

(Salamano/32005) The second teacher, who has been at the school since 1986, was a...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 05 Feb 2012 06:12:00 -0600


The second teacher, who has been at the school since 1986, was arrested for
allegedly fondling two 7-year-old girls.  I find it deeply troubling that his
behavior just happened to come to light this past Thursday.

My first priority would be to protect the kids in that school, kids whose
parents have no real option but to send their children to the school in
question.  I didn't say I'd fire the teachers.  But I'd immediately remove the
entire faculty from contact with those children in order to conduct a thorough
investigation designed to ascertain who may have known or suspected what, and
when.  Clearly, they're all going to eventually be deposed, or subpoened at
some point, in any event.  Why not take responsible, proactive action?  After a
teacher has been thoroughly questioned, and found to have neither known
anything of the alleged crimes, or known or suspected something, but failed to
bring such knowledge or suspicions to the attention of the administration, I'd
reinstate them to the classroom.

As for the principal, uh-uh.  How many free passes should a principal receive?
As I quoted previously, John Deasy, the superintendent of LAUSD, wondered aloud
how the behavior involving Mark Berndt could possibly have been going on as
long as it did without anyone knowing anything about it.  I share Mr. Deasy's
skepticism.  And I hold the principal responsible for permitting a school
culture in which no one comes forward with such information or suspicions in a
timely manner.

I mean, you've got a school counselor who, upon being apprised of suspicious-
sounding behavior on Mr. Berndt's part, tells the girls "it's not nice to make
up stories," and you've got a principal who, when shown a suspcious looking
photo by parents, responds with a dismissive attitude (as per the following
report by the L.A. Times):

http://tinyurl.com/86yvj29

Finally, if employees know, or believe they can't or won't be terminated when
shit like this happens *on a recurring basis*, don't you think that *some* may
hold a more lax, or blase attitude than we as parents and taxpayers expect and
deserve?  I, for one, do.

(Pluck Duck/32004) Yorick:

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 04 Feb 2012 15:49:00 -0600

Yorick:

I'm sorry, but I call bullshit.   I went to a large public school with a low
economic status student body and we saw none of that, save 1 teacher we all
rumored about hitting on kids, but had no real evidence and mainly were just
stating our own fantasies out loud.  I could buy you having experienced 1 or
2 personally through bad luck.  Stating that list you stated makes me think you
either a)believed every rumor your heard from high school kids, or b)got your
own life confused with the TV Show "Boston Public."


Sal:

I'd need more info to support you.  Why is the second teacher arrested?  Was it
aiding the crime, was it evidence that they knew about it and evidence
suggesting so did the rest of the staff, etc?

(Salamano/32003) So now a second teacher at Miramonte Elementary School has been ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 13:21:00 -0600


So now a second teacher at Miramonte Elementary School has been arrested.
LAUSD Superintendent John Deasy says he plans to ask the school board to
terminate the individual when next it meets.

As far as I'm concerned, this changes everything.  I think the principal of the
school ought to be terminated, immediately, the entire faculty ought to be
removed and placed on paid leave pending the findings of an investigation to be
launched immediately.

(Yorick/32002) I guess it depends on what you count. The list is actually pret...

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 06:54:00 -0600

I guess it depends on what you count.  The list is actually pretty
depressing.

One out-and-out teacher/student rape
Four teachers who were well known to be having sex with <18 yo students,
including one where the count was >5.
One instance of a teacher bringing a girl into a back room and threatening to
spank her ass while waving a yardstick
One principal who was known as the "Pimp Principle" because he was
reguarly bringing both school staff (at least two teachers) and "visitors"
into his office during the school day for quickies and blowjobs
One teacher well-known for masturbating behind his desk
One teacher who would announce to the class that he was setting up
his seating chart according to breast size, with the largest breasts
in the front row, and then did so.
One teacher who would come into school visibly drunk, high, and
"just-fucked" (complete with bruises and visible evidence on her
clothing) and then pass out at her desk

This is 13 years of PS for myself and my sister, 5 years for my son,
and 22 years teaching for my mother.

(Pluck Duck/32000) "Every instance of physically or sexually inappropriate teacher ...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 04:31:00 -0600

"Every instance of physically or sexually inappropriate teacher activity
I've been personally aware of, in the schools I and my family members
have attended or worked at, has been rumored and discussed for some time
before any action was taken.  I'll grant that this case was quite an
outlier in its repulsiveness, so it's more likely people were truly
oblivious."


Uh...exactly how many instances of teachers abusing students have you been
personally aware of in schools you and your family members attended or worked
at?

(Salamano/31999) Right. You don't take action against anyone on the basis of uns...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 07:04:00 -0600


Right.  You don't take action against anyone on the basis of unsubstantiated
rumors.  But you keep your eyes open.

Apparently, students told a school counselor, long ago, that Mark Berndt "often
moved his hands under his desk, near his lap, at the front of the classroom."
According to one of the former students, now age 30, the counselor, "just told
us it's not very good to make stories up. She said it was our imagination. It
was never talked about again."

http://tinyurl.com/7k6vban

Great job of counseling, huh?  Little wonder the kids weren't talking.
Assuming, of course, that these allegations prove to be true (if they can be
addressed at all, at this point).

(Egregious/31998) The problem is that rumors and feelings have lots of false posit...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 06:34:00 -0600


The problem is that rumors and feelings have lots of false positives.

Now, maybe "protecting the children" is worth flushing a few teachers'
careers down the crapper.  If I actually thought it woudl work, I'd
want to seriously debate that.

But it's trivial for students to start a rumor campaign against a
teacher they don't like.  Once that power exists, it will be used.

It's the same reason that, even though I think teachers need to be
lots easier to displace, you don't want to do it based on something
like test scores, because teenagers can easily be self-destructive
just to take out someone they don't like.

(Salamano/31997) I think one's first inclination is to think, "How could nobody h...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:41:00 -0600


I think one's first inclination is to think, "How could nobody have had an
inkling about what had been going on over a period of five years?"  In fact,
John Deasy, the Superintendent of the LAUSD, himself said, "I'm definitely
trying to understand how someone could not have known."

Perhaps one or more staff members did either know, or suspect something.  Then
again, this particular teacher had been at the school for more than 30 years.
His tenure probably eclipsed that of every other faculty member and
administrator.  He was a fixture.  And his longevity likely provided a certain
degree of insulation from suspicion.  Even if others observed suspicion-
arousing behavior, they may have been prone to discount it.

The lawsuits will soon start to fly.  As testimony eventually comes to light,
we'll all receive a lesson in the social psychology of resistance to whistle
blowing, and a possible refresher course in cognitive dissonance.

On a personal note, one of the freaky things about this guy is that he's a
Doppelganger for a friend of mine who was a longtime principal in LAUSD
schools.  (A really good guy and a fine principal.)  It's a good thing for my
friend's sake that Berndt is in the slammer, lest people mistakenly lynch my
friend.

(Yorick/31996) It's certainly not a scientific or legal surety. :)

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 15:03:00 -0600

It's certainly not a scientific or legal surety.  :)

Every instance of physically or sexually inappropriate teacher activity
I've been personally aware of, in the schools I and my family members
have attended or worked at, has been rumored and discussed for some time
before any action was taken.  I'll grant that this case was quite an
outlier in its repulsiveness, so it's more likely people were truly
oblivious.

Of course, even if s/he didn't, it doesn't change my opinion, unless the
principal was the first person to report what was going on.

(Steppenwolf/31995) "I am quite sure

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:59:00 -0600

"I am quite sure
the principals were not completely ignorant of this."

Why would you possibly be "quite sure" of this?

(Yorick/31994) I think the easiest answer is local accountability. I am quite ...

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 14:47:00 -0600

I think the easiest answer is local accountability.  I am quite sure
the principals were not completely ignorant of this.

Suspend them for a year and dock 'em all the seniority they
accumulated while this guy was teaching, at a minimum.

(Salamano/31993) PD>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 10:18:00 -0600


PD>>

You wrote:  "I hope this guy rots in jail."

It would appear that the judge presiding over Mr. Berndt's arraignment saw fit
to begin fulfilling your wish - one that I wholeheartedly share - immediately.
Bail was set at $23 million.

(Mean Mr Mustard/31992) It provides a safe haven against the Columbine guys.

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:16:00 -0600

It provides a safe haven against the Columbine guys.

(Chaos And Void/31991) I just can't figure out why classroom doors need the ability to ...

Chaos And Void@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 09:06:00 -0600


I just can't figure out why classroom doors need the ability to lock from the
inside. What purpose does that serve?

(DesCartes/31990) I was always told that I should never be in a room alone with a ...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:31:00 -0600

I was always told that I should never be in a room alone with a student.
Although I suppose that's more for my protection than the student's. If a
teacher wants to be alone with a student, I don't suppose a school rule like
that will prevent him or her.

(Salamano/31989) To make matters worse, I see that the school in question is situ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 08:31:00 -0600


To make matters worse, I see that the school in question is situated within the
current Assembly Speaker's district.  Oh boy....

(Salamano/31988) DesCartes>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:54:00 -0600


DesCartes>>

I guess I was thinking, initially, in terms of what we *could* do, only to end
up with two undesirable options.  God only knows what our legislators *will*
do.  From a personal political perspective, I'm looking forward to an
opportunity to collaborate with the teachers unions in opposing any over-the-
top "solutions."

As additional facts surface, I'm sure there will be implications for the
tightening of current policies.  For example, the teacher in question was,
apparently, luring students into his classroom during recess and lunch periods.
Administrators and/or other teachers might have paid some heed to what was
transpiring in the classroom.  Even just checking to see whether the classroom
door was locked (which, apparently, it was) might have been helpful.  But these
are common sense practices that shouldn't necessitate the imposition of new
laws and/or regulations...which I fear will, inexorably, be coming.  The timing
could hardly be better (or worse): legislators have until February 18 to
introduce new bills.

(DesCartes/31987) So, your question "what do we do?" was really the question "what...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:52:00 -0600

So, your question "what do we do?" was really the question "what will the
government do?"
I was taking it more seriously, asking what we actually should do, not what
will happen.

(Salamano/31986) As per Egregious' observation, we live in a world in which legis...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:38:00 -0600


As per Egregious' observation, we live in a world in which legislators will
trip over one another to sieze upon a sensational, if exceptional, story in
order to affix their name as the author of a bill designed to see that such
crimes will never recur.

I know it's coming.  I'm just trying to anticipate what they're going to come
up with.  Thankfully, there's no money available to place cameras in every
classroom.  On the other hand, that will probably result in the imposition of
unwelcome practices upon school administrators.

(Egregious/31985) > but is it necessary to go to extreme lenghts to prevent

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 07:25:00 -0600


> but is it necessary to go to extreme lenghts to prevent
> something that may never happen again?

In a rational world, no.  There will always be some amount of crime,
including molestations, rapes, and even murders that happen in
schools.  You won't get to 0.000% unless you shut down the schools.

In a rational world, we'd realize that passing laws based off of
single outlier instances was a bad idea.  Just look at the asinine
thing known as Kaylee's Law.

But we don't live in a rational world.  We live in a world where a
weeping parent television is considered the highest authority on
everything.

(Salamano/31984) DesCartes>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 05:28:00 -0600


DesCartes>>

Since when does common sense drive policy?

(DesCartes/31983) If this is an extreme exception, why do we need to take measures...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 05:04:00 -0600

If this is an extreme exception, why do we need to take measures to make sure
it won't happen again?  I can understand taking measures to prevent it if stuff
like this is common, but is it necessary to go to extreme lenghts to prevent
something that may never happen again?

(Note: I don't know anything about this other than what I saw in the headlines.
I did not care to read about the story.)

I understand the shock and the horror of something like this, but I think that
bad policy results from reacting to extreme cases.  If we distill from this
things that may be more common (teacher abuse of students when they are
unsupervised, for example), address that.

(Salamano/31982) One of our local radio guys just delivered the following bit of ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 04:55:00 -0600


One of our local radio guys just delivered the following bit of irony regarding
the Berndt matter:

"...and all of this happens in a system where you can't give an aspirin without
a Papal dispensation..."

(Salamano/31981) The story made the front page of the L.A. Times, and is all over...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 04:49:00 -0600


The story made the front page of the L.A. Times, and is all over local radio
and tv.  It's not good.  This is the last thing our schools need at this point.
But how do we prevent it?  Either we mount "security cameras" in every
classroom - an unpleasant thought evocative of "Big Brother" - or have
administrators make far more frequent, unscheduled visits to classrooms...which
I don't see in the cards.

Thank goodness these situations are *extremely* rare.  In fact, I'm not sure
there's ever been a comparable set of incidents.  But even one is one too many.
So, what do we do?

(Pluck Duck/31980) The only thing I can think of is the young age of the children a...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 01 Feb 2012 04:12:00 -0600

The only thing I can think of is the young age of the children and a
language/cultural barrier.


I hope this guy rots in jail.

(Salamano/31979) But this guy was, undoubtedly, a union member:

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:51:00 -0600


But this guy was, undoubtedly, a union member:

http://tinyurl.com/6mxj3fb

Now, let me hasten to add that I believe that truly monstrous teachers like
this are proportionately distributed between public and private schools.
Simply because there are so many more public school teachers, these kinds of
incidents are bound to occur much more frequently in public schools.  So this
is NOT about public vs. private schools.  I'd be writing what follows if this
douchebag had taught in a private school.

But really, how does this happen?  How does a teacher get away with doing what
this guy did for five or six years?  How is it that school administrators are
unaware?  Who the hell's minding the store?

The students at this school are overwhelmingly Hispanic.  Could it have been a
language problem?  Did any parents know, or have suspicions?  Were there
possible immigration concerns at play that made parents reticent to come
forward, if, indeed, they had any suspicions?

What steps can be taken to prevent such situations?  Should cameras be placed
in all classrooms?

(Pluck Duck/31978) And just think, substitutes aren't even union members.

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 23:48:00 -0600

And just think,  substitutes aren't even union members.

(Salamano/31977) Gespalder>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 27 Jan 2012 08:35:00 -0600


Gespalder>>

You missed this one:

http://tinyurl.com/6p7rd5y

A student takes a photo of a sleeping substitute teacher, and *the kid* gets
suspended.

Yet another development of monumental importance...

(Egregious/31976) This sounds a lot like "what can we do to make administration of

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 10:48:00 -0600


This sounds a lot like "what can we do to make administration of
schooling easier" as opposed to "what can we do to make sure each
student gets the best education possible."

Complaints that students might come in from out of state having
learned differetnt hings bug me.  What if a student was in state and
learned things already?  Stop trying to force every student into
a round hole.

(Gespalder/31975) I have long stated that I think all the testing that is mandated...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 09:42:00 -0600

I have long stated that I think all the testing that is mandated by NCLB is
silly and all we are doing is teaching to the test.

(Pluck Duck/31974) Gespalder"

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 23 Jan 2012 05:25:00 -0600

Gespalder"

What are your thoughts on the issue.  Personally, I'd fully support a lessening
of statewide standardized testing.  I would also support a study or system to
replace it that still ensures at least a close approximation of a standard
measuring system.  My district uses common exams for all core courses, but they
are developed by my district for my district.  Why can't all districts be
required to do the same, with a governing state-wide body overseeing the common
exams to ensure that they're generally of a similar quality?

(Egregious/31973) IT"S A BREAKING NEWS ALERT QUICK ACT FAST PANIC PANIC PANIC

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 18 Jan 2012 07:08:00 -0600

IT"S A BREAKING NEWS ALERT QUICK ACT FAST PANIC PANIC PANIC

(Lochner/31972) Do we need a BBS-wide Gespalder Rule?

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 16:32:00 -0600

Do we need a BBS-wide Gespalder Rule?

(Gespalder/31971) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/17/2012

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 17 Jan 2012 14:17:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/17/2012

Gov. Jerry Brown to call for less state testing in schools

Gov. Jerry Brown will call for less statewide testing and expanding classroom
focus beyond math and English in his annual State of the State address
tomorrow, according to his top education adviser.

(Egregious/31970) HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 12 Jan 2012 05:06:00 -0600

HOLY FUCKING SHIT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

(Gespalder/31969) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/11/2012

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 21:28:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/11/2012

Natomas trustees move to cut staff, restructure

The Natomas Unified School District Board on Wednesday night voted to approve
an extensive list of recommendations that includes reducing staff,
restructuring administrative salaries, reorganizing departments and changing
job descriptions.

(Gespalder/31968) I found this on The Huffington Post (following a link after read...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:12:00 -0600

I found this on The Huffington Post (following a link after reading another
article that was linked by Bleacherreport.com)

Slavery Examples Used In Georgia School Worksheet Upsets Parents (VIDEO)

Parents of students at Beaver Ridge Elementary School in Norcross, Ga., are
outraged at the school district's response to the reports of using examples of
slavery in math word problems, the Atlanta Journal-Constitution reports.

The word problems in questions include references to slavery and "beatings,"
according to the paper.

"Each tree had 56 oranges. If 8 slaves pick them equally, then how much would
each slave pick?" and
"If Frederick got two beatings per day, how many beatings did he get in 1
week?"
It's not just the word problems that are sparking criticism, but the way it's
being handled. According to the AJC, district officials said the elementary
school's principal will "work with teachers to come up with more appropriate
lessons."

District spokesperson Sloan Roach told the station the teachers were trying to
incorporate social studies lessons in math problems for a "cross-curricular
activity."

Roach went on to tell My Fox Atlanta that, while the the questions were
inappropriate, she doesn't believe the teachers meant any harm.

"This is simply a case of creating a bad question," Roach told the station.

Parent Terrance Barnett told WSB TV that having to explain the questions to his
child was painful.

"Something like shouldn't be imbedded into a kid of the 3rd, 4th, 5th, any
grade," Barnett told WSB TV. "I'm having to explain to my 8-year-old why
slavery or slaves or beatings are in a math problem. That hurts."

(Egregious/31967) Sounds hard to distinguish from the null hypothesis: if charter

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 05:23:00 -0600


Sounds hard to distinguish from the null hypothesis:  if charter
schools had no effect, just at random some would outperform and
some would underperform.

(Lochner/31966) They're pretty hit and miss here in St. Louis. Some thrive, man...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 15:31:00 -0600


They're pretty hit and miss here in St. Louis.  Some thrive, many don't.

(Miser/31965) No big surprise there. Charter schools are subject to scrutiny ...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:18:00 -0600

No big surprise there.  Charter schools are subject to scrutiny by definition,
right?

(Gespalder/31964) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/15/2011

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 10:09:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/15/2011

State charter group says 4 underperforming local schools should close

The California Charter Schools Association is calling for the closure of 10
California charter schools - four in the Sacramento region.

(Salamano/31963) Addendum to previous post...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:19:00 -0600


Addendum to previous post...

I love it when teachers do the kind of thing PD did.  The $1,000 is wonderful,
but far beyond the well deserved prize, what he did for his students is
priceless.  They'll always remember the messages conveyed in the video they
created, but that's the least of it.  They've learned that there are many ways
to achieve, have seen how learning inside and outside the classroom mesh, and
have gained valuable insights into the nature and benefits of collaboration.
They've also learned that recognition for having done something that's truly
worthwhile contributes to real self esteem.  And much more, I'm sure.

(Salamano/31962) Way to go, PD! I thought your video was outstanding. Kudos to ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 06:06:00 -0600


Way to go, PD!  I thought your video was outstanding.  Kudos to you and the
kids!

(Pluck Duck/31961) Thanks to all who helped vote for our vide

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 05:20:00 -0600

Thanks to all who helped vote for our vide
er...video (hate this bbs client.)  Especially you, Salamano.  The voting
counted for 10% of our overall score and we won 2nd place in the
greenscenescontest.com contest for Consumer's Energy.  We won $1000 for our
program, and since we don't have a budget, it will be a HUGE help for us! The
program has grown a ton since I took over two years ago, and we're offering a
third class (IB Film studies) next year, so having $1000 dollars to try and
buy another computer for students to edit fims and videos on and start toward a
more advanced film camera that allows for things like manual focus so kids can
do shots with narrow depth of field will be a HUGE help.

It's really hard to teach 80 students a year Television and Film production
with no budget. You guys have NO idea how much your support helped me out.

(Pluck Duck/31960) I wonder if you could ever go to a more "project based" assessme...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 14 Dec 2011 05:13:00 -0600

I wonder if you could ever go to a more "project based" assessment system for
college entrance and/or high school graduation.  It would require a massive
influx of resources into late high school education, but would possibly be a
far greater system of evaluation.

Imagine if a student wishing to go in to skilled trades of any sort had to
demonstrate their knowledge of basic skilled trades by personally building
something and presenting their creation and how it displays their mastery.

A student wishing to study engineering had to design and engineer a product and
present their designs.

A student wishing to go in to the arts had to give some sort of artistic
performance.

You get the idea.  Each would require mastery in one area (math, science,
communication, etc.) while demonstrating basic skills in others (a written
report explaning their process, a presentation, etc._


THIS could truly demonstrate whether that student is ready to graduate and
enter the workforce or higher ed, and would also allow for creativity and a
student to play up their strengths.  It would let students personalize to their
interests, and give colleges or employers a real idea of what they're going to
get.

This would require a ton of resources, though, and our society just isn't
willing (or perhaps able) to invest those resources in to our educational
system.

(Wang Master/31959) have you seen california's budget?

Wang Master@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 23:21:00 -0600

have you seen california's budget?
the fact that tey had tocut it less than expected is pretty amazing.

(Gespalder/31958) At a time when the U.S. is going down on the list of worldwide e...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 12:41:00 -0600

At a time when the U.S. is going down on the list of worldwide education
rankings you'd think we wouldn't want to cut education funding


Jerry Brown's cuts to California schools less than feared

Gov. Jerry Brown will slash higher education, child care and school bus
service, but he will largely spare K-12 classrooms from mid-year cuts under a
revised budget forecast to be released at noon, sources said.

(Yorick/31957) In an oft-emailed NYTimes op-ed, Helen Ladd writes:

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 12:33:00 -0600

In an oft-emailed NYTimes op-ed, Helen Ladd writes:

"Since they can't take on poverty itself, education policy makers should try to
provide poor students with the social support and experiences that middle-class
students enjoy as a matter of course."

Given that the largest and most expensive attempt to do this, HeadStart,
appears to be an abject failure in terms of any long-term changes in relative
student performance, not to mention many other small-scale "equalization"
projects, anything more in this regard would seem to be a windmill-tilting
exercise.  Does anyone disagree?  Are there any reasonable additional
programs that stand up to scientific scrutiny?   The article mentions
the East Durham Children's Initiative, whose website lists programs of
the following types:

1.  Parental training (birth-5 yo)
2.  Tutoring
3.  Family literacy
4.  Weekend meals
5.  Obesity prevention
6.  Peer Counseling
7.  Reading groups
8.  Orchestral Music training

(Salamano/31956) I don't know whether Martin Carnoy's _Schooling in a corporate s...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 12:34:00 -0600


I don't know whether Martin Carnoy's _Schooling in a corporate society:
the political economy of education in America" is still in print, but it
addressed the issue just raised by Egregious (and did so some 35 years ago).
Carnoy notes a dual role played by Junior Colleges: 1) they keep large numbers
of under-achieving young people out of the labor market for an extended period
of time so that, 2) they will be induced to internalize their "failure," and
modify their career aspirations.

(Egregious/31955) Yeah, there are supposedly 1000 colleges that are "optional" on ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:32:00 -0600


Yeah, there are supposedly 1000 colleges that are "optional" on the
SATs.  You have even heard of a few of them.  (Good news, everyone!
The "Art Institute Of Phoenix" makes them optional.)  Last I scanned
the literature I didn't see any data on how many people who decline to
submit scores at someplace like Wake Forest get in, or the achievement
levels of those who declined to submit scores.  Any pointers would be
appreciated.

Nearly every call for SAT-optional has been about stuff like "inherent
racial biases" and stuff like that -- except that the SAT
_overestimates_ black student GPA.  Oops.

While a good measure of general intelligence, the SAT is not a measure
of conscientiousness.  There are smart people who are lazy, and dumb
people who work really hard.  (Although STEM courses are likely out of
the reach of anyone below ~500 on their SATs.  No amount of hard work
is going to make you able to keep up with hard-working kids who got
700s on their math SAT.)

In fact, it may be that what college graduation does is sort out the
students that 1) smart enough to get in, and 2) hard-working enough to
finish a four-year degree.  A really, really, really big problem is
that signalling this way is largely a zero-sum game: if most people in
society are getting 4 year degrees, you need to get a master's degree
to stand out.  This is a vicious treadmill and on the current path, in
a generation's time people will need to spend 8 years of their life
chasing educational credentials just to get in the door with
employers.

(Karma Police/31954) I don't have a problem with standardized tests as they are a dec...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 11:03:00 -0600

I don't have a problem with standardized tests as they are a decent and
efficient way to assess some types of knowledge and learning.  I disagree with
high-stakes standardized testing.
Also, the most recent research done on SAT/ACT prediction of college success
shows that the connection between the two is a lot thinner than previously
thought.  In fact, there are several schools which are now going test optional
because of the recent research on the subject.  So, strike another blow to
standardized tests.

(Egregious/31953) http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/itmrlsx/search.aspx?subject...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 08:07:00 -0600


http://nces.ed.gov/nationsreportcard/itmrlsx/search.aspx?subject=mathematics

I don't see grade 10 questions here, like the school board member did and "had
to guess on all 60", but looking at the 60 questions rated "easy" for grade 12
on the above web site, any adult who can't get at least half of those right
should resign from anything having to do with education.

(Salamano/31952) Yorick>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:56:00 -0600

Yorick>>

"*Salamano's* article," Kimosabe?

My preference would be to use *criterion referenced* tests instead of norm
referenced tests.  The former assesses performance against a well defined
behavioral domain, instead of against another group of learners.

(Egregious/31951) Yorick: I don't think anyone should "graduate" high school. Sch...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:45:00 -0600


Yorick: I don't think anyone should "graduate" high school.  Schools
should not get mired in credentialism.

As to those questions, any adult who can't answer them should feel
sad.  I could accept them missing the y-axis question.

(Yorick/31950) Everyone avoided my question. This is fine, if you don't want t...

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:13:00 -0600

Everyone avoided my question.  This is fine, if you don't want to answer it. :)

Given that IQ determines most of the distribution of scores on standardized
tests, you're faced with three options, as far as I can tell:
1.  Abandon use of "bell-curve" testing in favor of a simple skills test that
you expect a well-prepared 70 IQ student to be able to pass.  Realistically,
that means that a 130 IQ student can probably take it and pass it many years
earlier with zero instruction.  This, perhaps, describes a GED test in some
states.
2.  Accept that your bottom 10-20% of kids (by standardized test IQ) are going
to fail.  Legally require them to spend thousands of hours in class, but deny
them the one practical takeaway from those thousands of hours, a piece of
paper.
3.  Offer various "levels" of testing where it's generally accepted that a
college-bound person will take the higher levels (AP tests, A-levels) and those
who are not college bound will take other tests (or none).

I looked at the questions on the tests mentioned in Salamano's article.  I
don't think a person with a high level of mathematical intelligence would have
a problem answering them at 12.  I doubt most adults would answer them
correctly.  Requiring them for high school graduation seems like bad public
policy: the only person who _might_ be helped by such things are the thin swath
of marginal kids who are just smart enough to barely pass the test if they
triple their efforts.  But for the 30% below them and the 60% above them the
entire thing is a waste of time.

(Egregious/31949) My favorite story of why to skeptical is about a case where a qu...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 07:01:00 -0600


My favorite story of why to skeptical is about a case where a question
on a test had a bus schedule, adn the inner city kids got it
overwhelmingly right and the suburb kids got it overwhelmingly
wrong.  So it was thrown out because it wasn't providing the right
results.

Nonetheless, the people who really care if the SAT (or the ACT, so
if it's all about ETS or the College Board you have choices) has
good results are the colleges, and they find it very useful.  Note
(not) that this is 100% proof positive, either, of course.

(Salamano/31948) Egregious>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 06:55:00 -0600


Egregious>>

I admit to a certain mistrust of the SAT ever since I read Alan Nairn's _The
Reign of ETS: the Corporation That Makes up Minds_ while in grad school (back
in the Stone Age).  The test has undergone some substantial changes since then,
but I still don't like it, and regard it as little more than a convenience for
college admissions officers.

(Egregious/31947) Yes, it's not a _perfect_ predictor. No test, anywhere, is. I ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:53:00 -0600


Yes, it's not a _perfect_ predictor.  No test, anywhere, is.  I mean, you
could get slightly better results by making the students do a pretend year
of schooling under controlled circumstances.

But instead you can get something within 0.10 just in a morning.

(And since schools are practicing affirmative action for men, the ones
getting in are on average probably less prepared for college work.)

(Salamano/31945) "What it's actually supposed to predict is first year GPA, and i...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:44:00 -0600


"What it's actually supposed to predict is first year GPA, and it
does a pretty good job of that"

Unless one happens to be of the female persuasion: "The results for gender
reveal that the SAT tends to underpredict FYGPA for females, with mean
standardized residuals ranging from 0.10 to 0.17 for the three sections
and the combined SAT."  (Then, too, the SAT tends to *overpredict* males'
first-year GPA.)

Also, first-year college GPA is not a particularly good predictor of *overall*
college GPA.

(Egregious/31944) Of course the SAT is a good approximation of IQ. There's a reas...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:37:00 -0600


Of course the SAT is a good approximation of IQ.  There's a reason
colleges keep on using the SAT and ACT, despite years of giving lip
service to the concept of "it's not the only thing we look at" or
"it's only optional."  If it didn't matter, they would refuse to even
accept the information.

What it's actually supposed to predict is first year GPA, and it
does a pretty good job of that:  http://preview.tinyurl.com/cw3jpj2



But on "high-stakes testing," I don't think a school should refuse to
graduate a student because they can't pass a certain test.  That's
because I don't think schools should be graduating anyone.  They need
to be in th business of education, not evaluation or credentialism.

If other parties want to test students, great.  More power to them.

(Salamano/31943) "They measure how well a student has been prepared to take the s...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 05:05:00 -0600


"They measure how well a student has been prepared to take the standardized
test."

"Test wiseness" can certainly be a factor.  It still remains the case, however,
that in practice as well as theory, students can be well prepared to take a
standardized test *by actually learning the content* the test is designed to
measure.  One of the points I was trying to make is that test developers can
actually mask effective instruction by tossing out items that fail to produce
sufficient levels of discriminability.

(Karma Police/31942) Yeah, I debate the standardized tests meaure IQ effectively. I m...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 03:55:00 -0600

Yeah, I debate the standardized tests meaure IQ effectively. I mean, in theory,
yes. In practice, no. They measure how well a student has been prepared to take
the standardized test.  For example - State bar exams.  I know in IL at least
(possible nationwide) about 80% of bar exam takers use BARBRI as their test
prep course.  BARBRI teaches its students that if they don't know the answer to
a question, they should answer C by default.  That means if the exam contains a
question for which BARBRI students aren't prepared to answer, the question will
more than likely get thrown out. The preponderance of test takers answering C
will eliminate the question. So thus, the exam becomes more about what kind of
test prep course you've taken and less about general knowledge of the subject.

(Salamano/31941) Yorick>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 12:58:00 -0600


Yorick>>

I think there's some degree of truth to what you wrote, but for reasons other
than students' failure to comprehend the questions.

One of the functions of many a standardized test is to produce a normal
distribution of scores among test takers.  In order to yield such a
distribution, it's important that every item on a test demonstrate a certain
degree of "discriminability."  Simply put, a certain percentage of test takers
need to answer a given item correctly (and incorrectly).  Imagine that teachers
across the nation (or whatever the relevant test-taking universe happens to be)
do an exceptionally good job of preparing their students to answer items
measuring a certain knowledge subset correctly.  The test maker will end up
tossing these items out and replacing them with items that will contribute to
the restoration of a normal distribution of scores.  In *this* manner,
achievement tests can end up approximating tests of intelligence.

(Yorick/31940) Most standardized tests basically measure IQ, given that the kid...

Yorick@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 11:21:00 -0600

Most standardized tests basically measure IQ, given that the kids have the
minimum amount of instruction and language skills to be able to understand the
questions.

Should a kid with an IQ of 70 be able to graduate high school in a
conventional way?  How about 90?

(Karma Police/31939) I don't actually have a huge problem with standardized tests. I...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:17:00 -0600

I don't actually have a huge problem with standardized tests.  I have a huge
problem with high-stakes testing.  There's a difference.

(Rick Jenkins/31938) My son is in 3rd grade in a (crappy) public school district in C...

Rick Jenkins@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:46:00 -0600


My son is in 3rd grade in a (crappy) public school district in California and
they are already doing pre-Algebra. It's just 5x=30 type of stuff but I was
shocked when I saw his homework the other day.

(Salamano/31937) It's the same here in California, DesCartes. Half the students ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 06:21:00 -0600


It's the same here in California, DesCartes.  Half the students admitted to the
Cal-State University system are deficient in math.

(DesCartes/31936) I think secondary schools should get into the teaching math busi...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 05:57:00 -0600

I think secondary schools should get into the teaching math business. So many
students here are taking what amounts to high school math when they get to the
university.

(Egregious/31935) Despite my snark, I think schools should largely get out of the ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 05:34:00 -0600


Despite my snark, I think schools should largely get out of the testing
business.  Maybe use them as admissions criteria to make sure someone is
up to speed for a given class's difficulty, but courses should be short
and give people chances to hop up if they missed.

(Salamano/31934) Setting aside the subtext of the article (i.e., that public educ...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 04:57:00 -0600


Setting aside the subtext of the article (i.e., that public education is no
longer public - change is driven by corporate interests and decisions are "sold
to the public by the rich and powerful,"), the most important question it
raises, at least in my personal view, is curricular in nature.  Ralph Tyler
made it the first of the four questions posed in his 1949 classic, _Basic
Principles of Curriculum and Instruction_: "What educational purposes should
the school seek to attain?"

In plain English, the essential question is: What should our schools be
teaching?  If we're teaching the wrong things, of what significance are testing
and accountability?  If we're teaching the right things, the critical questions
concerning testing and accountability should be: 1) Is a test valid (i.e. how
well does it measure what's actually being taught)?  2) Is a test reliable
(i.e. how confident can we be that a test will produce the same results on
repeated administrations)?  And most importantly, 3) For what purpose(s) will
the test results be used?

As far as I'm concerned, the purpose served by most tests ought to be the
amelioration of instruction.  Tests should provide teachers with useful
information that enables them to fine tune their practice in such a manner as
to facilitate learning on the part of all their students.  If we're teaching
the right things, and teachers are receiving valid, reliable and consistent
information (and not only from paper and pencil tests) about students' growth
and achievement, decisions can be made over the course of time about a
particular teacher's ability to make a difference.  (Such decisions should take
into account a variety of factors that will not necessarily be uniform from
school to school, classroom to classroom, or teacher to teacher.)

The article in question seems to promote the view that all instruction (at
least all instruction subject to "high stakes" testing) ought to be essentially
instrumental.  Some of the passages leave me wondering whether the person
being quoted thinks that reading Shakespeare or knowing anything about the
history of Western Civilization ought to be taught.  We hear the following: "A
test that can determine a student's future life chances should surely relate in
some practical way to the requirements of life."  And then, this:  " As
subject-matter specialists, how qualified were they to make general judgments
about the needs of this state's children in a future they can't possibly
predict?"

Shouldn't such a view underscore the importance of teaching those things deemed
to be of perennial value?  And shouldn't demonstrating the ability to "learn
how to learn" acquire similar stature?  These are my take-aways from the
article.

(Chaos And Void/31933) What I mainly got out of the article was a totally reasonable fe...

Chaos And Void@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 17:40:00 -0600


What I mainly got out of the article was a totally reasonable fear that
standardized testing is used far too much to dictate what paths a student
should be allowed or encouraged to take, and that the author believes that he
might have done badly enough himself on such a test when he was young that he
would have been actively discouraged from continuing his education, which would
be exceedingly unhelpful, as he obviously did end up benefiting greatly from
all of his education.

(Egregious/31932) Also, how does research show that "high stakes testing doesn't a...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 10:10:00 -0600

Also, how does research show that "high stakes testing doesn't actually
assess much of anything other than a person's ability to regurgitate useless
material"?

How do you study that?  If you put "useful material" on the test, does it
not get regurgitated?  This sounds like a good way to find out what's useless
and what's useful.  Does the polarity flip if it's low-stakes testing?  Who
has to know it's high-stakes testing for this effect to happen?

(Egregious/31931) You couldn't pass a test designed for an entirely different demo...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:59:00 -0600

You couldn't pass a test designed for an entirely different demographic?

HOLY COW!

(Karma Police/31930) I think the critique is pretty clear and spot on with the resear...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 09:51:00 -0600

I think the critique is pretty clear and spot on with the research that shows
that high stakes testing doesn't actually assess much of anything other than a
person's ability to regurgitate useless material.  His point was that people's
jobs (administrators and teachers), as well as how students are tracked in
schools can hinge on a test that doesn't assess anything of consequence.
I probably wouldn't be able to pass those standardized tests either, and I just
graduated from a master's program, where I used high-level statistics to write
a thesis.

(Egregious/31929) I would probably bomb on a standardized test given to a Chinese ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 05:34:00 -0600

I would probably bomb on a standardized test given to a Chinese 5th grader,
too, because I don't speak Chinese.  This doesn't mean the test is wrong to
give to a 5th grader in China.

It's not like socialiogists haven't studied the ever-living daylights out
of how testing scores correlate over time.  A measure of a 4-year-old's
intelligence has about a 50% correlation with their adult score, but by
age 15 it's around 95%.

(DesCartes/31928) I'm not a fan of standardized testing, but his critique wasn't t...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:51:00 -0600

I'm not a fan of standardized testing, but his critique wasn't too strong, I
didn't think. He hasn't seen a math problem in 20 or 30 years, probably. And
he's expecting to do well on the math test? I have students who have been out
of math for just 5 years, and they have to start over from algebra. I'm not
surprised that he only got 1/6 of the math problems right, nor do I think
that's a problem with the math test.
He doesn't think that any of the math problems are relevent to what he does?
That's a problem---if everybody in high school is going to do what he does.
Schools need to prepare people for a variety of careers. Some of the things he
might think are important to test may not be applicable to other fields. Even
for the people who said that the high school math was not necessary for their
profession (I wonder if he knows any engineers or scientists--not that they use
high school math, but they'd at least be more sympathetic to the idea that high
school math is important in understand more complicated math and science), I
don't think this means math (or even math as it is taught) is irrelevent and
should nto be required, or tested.

I mean, I'm not a fan of standardized testing or high stakes testing, but his
critique was a joke. Why should I be surprised that somebody 30 years out of
high school has forgotten a lot of that stuff, and why should I think that high
school should teach things that one person has learned over 30 years of
experience?

(Kyoti/31927) I guess I'm dense. Was the material presented to the students? I...

Kyoti@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 11:31:00 -0600

I guess I'm dense. Was the material presented to the students? I'm assuming
they were taught (or trained) on the material. If they were, then the test
would be testing their ability to retain that material and recall it.
Is the author instead questioning the purpose of presenting this material to
kids en masse? Is he getting around to stating that education should be ended
earlier? or more focused on core skills such as balancing a check book?
It reads to me like railing against standardized tests while saying that they
discourage children from going to college.

(Karma Police/31926) Would YOU be able to pass the high-stakes standardized tests des...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 10:03:00 -0600

Would YOU be able to pass the high-stakes standardized tests designed for 10th
graders?  This clearly successful guy couldn't...
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/when-an-adult-took-standa
rdized-tests-forced-on-kids/2011/12/05/gIQApTDuUO_blog.html

(Cenatour/31925) got this question in an interview....how would you respond?

Cenatour@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 24 Nov 2011 02:35:00 -0600

got this question in an interview....how would you respond?

You are in class and there are about 12 students in the room with you.  Some
are working, some are on facebook some are chatting. A student walks in and
starts self harming to the point where he is bleeding.  What do you do?


little bit of background about the job i am going for - it's a teaching
position of a program (in Australia) that is taught in mainstream schools
targeted at senior students who do not want to go to university but want to
learn a trade and get an apprenticeship.  It is not in a school but a community
organisation and is for students who cant cope in the system or are facing
severe hardship at home....in australia and uk they are called pupil referal
units, dunno what they are called in the usa.

So anyway if anyone has experience in that kind of seeting or with kids who
self harm, would love to know the "correct" answer cos I just took a shot off
my head and answered how i think i would react to that.

(Pluck Duck/31924) IF any of you don't mind helping out my TV Production II student...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 08:51:00 -0600

IF any of you don't mind helping out my TV Production II students...


Consumers Energy has a contest going where high schools could submit videos on
the company's new green energy iniatives and wha the high school itself is
doing to promote green energy or go green.  My kids entered a video.  Only
about 12 schools total, did.

The winning school gets $5000 for their program, which my program, which has no
actual budget and buys all equipement we use from a grant writing by me or a
few small fundraisers we can do a year, could REALLY use.  10% of the judging
is based on votes, and I truly believe my kids have put in one of the top three
videos.

www.greenscenescontest.com  and the school is Heritage High School.  You can
vote onece a day from November 16th to the 30th.   We would REALLY appreciate
your vote.

Everything in the video had to be student generated, from music to graphics to
footage.


Thanks in advance to all that help us!

(Steppenwolf/31923) ACK! Industrialized is precisely the word I missed.

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:41:00 -0600

ACK! Industrialized is precisely the word I missed.

Nor does the U.S. have the worst mobility among them, but it's lower-tier.

(Lochner/31922) "Interpret as you may: the authors propose that other nations ha...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 09:37:00 -0600


"Interpret as you may: the authors propose that other nations have better
programs for helping children at a younger age, which also explains why the
U.S. has such low social mobility relative to other nations."

  There is absolutely no way on God's green earth that this is true.

  0% chance.

  I think you're missing a qualifier, such as "industrialized" or "first world
  nations."  I simply cannot accept that social mobility is lower in the US
  than in any traditional economy on earth.

(Egregious/31921) I was trying to find Gene Expression's post about this, but I ca...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:40:00 -0600


I was trying to find Gene Expression's post about this, but I can't.

Imagine a world with perfect schooling and environment.  Everyone gets
all the chances they need to succeed.  By reducing the environmental
factor down to zero, all remaining variation is in the genes.  Whether
you think that's 1% or 10% or 60%, that's the only variation left.

Oh, I found it.  here:
http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/gnxp/2011/08/the-end-of-environmental-inequal
ity-means-the-rise-of-genetic-inequality/

(Steppenwolf/31920) Just read an interesting study. In the U.S., parents' education ...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 08:37:00 -0600

Just read an interesting study. In the U.S., parents' education level is more
closely tied to their children's success (in testing) than in any other
industrialized nation.

Interpret as you may: the authors propose that other nations have better
programs for helping children at a younger age, which also explains why the
U.S. has such low social mobility relative to other nations.

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/CRITA_FINAL.pdf

(Egregious/31919) Wow, this guy follows the game theory of college education aweso...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 11 Nov 2011 06:39:00 -0600


Wow, this guy follows the game theory of college education awesomely.
I think I knew most of these but hadn't connected the dots as well as
he does:

1. USNWR ranks graduate/professional schools based on incoming
   students' GPA.
2. Those schools care more about GPA than course difficulty
   or choice of school.
3. Students not going into STEM fields don't _dare_ take any
   classes in which they can't pull an A or an A-.
4. The courses that offer the easy A's will be those without direct
   job prospects, because that's how they get students.

We have a bad system, yet every step of the chain is rational.  Just
like a good Shakespearean tragedy.

This part jumps out:

> Higher education is both too expensive and the risks of failure too
> great for it to be rational to put the education ahead of the
> credential.  I wish, as an educator, a human being, and a parent, it
> were otherwise, but it's not.

I worry about this a lot with my own kids.  My oldest is generally
smart and likes science and language arts but doesn't like math.  He
probably won't be able to handle STEM.

(Oh, I forgot the link.
http://volokh.com/2011/11/09/reforming-higher-education-incentives-stem-majors-
and-liberal-arts-majors-the-education-versus-credential-tradeoff/
)

(Salamano/31918) SFTD

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 10:42:00 -0500


SFTD

Before Steppenwolf and Lochner jump all over me...I am well aware that it would
be difficult, from a legal point of view, to make the case that cheating on the
SAT constituted a form of theft.  What is it they say...possession is 9/10s of
the law?  It's impossible to steal something that is not possessed by the
putative victim.  I get this, and was writing more from a moral point of view.

I don't really have an opinion when it comes to criminalization of the behavior
in question, though I can imagine that the enforcement of such a law would be
problematic.

(Salamano/31917) I've never given any real thought to the matter of criminalizing...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 09:43:00 -0500


I've never given any real thought to the matter of criminalizing cheating on
the SAT, but I imagine it can be conceived as a form of theft.  That is to say,
if by virtue of Person A's cheating, Person A secures admission to University X
(or other valued consideration) that would otherwise have been tendered to
Person B, Person A can be thought to have wrongfully taken something of
considerable value from Person B.

(Egregious/31916) The recent news stories are about hiring people to take the test...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:45:00 -0500

The recent news stories are about hiring people to take the test in
your name.  At one point, someone of one gender took a test for someone
with a name that was ovbiously the other gender and the proctors didn't
even care.

(Miser/31915) Is there a link? I wonder if it's centered around particular ty...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:43:00 -0500

Is there a link?  I wonder if it's centered around particular types of cheating
or what.  There are a lot of methods that can be used to cheat.. shoulder
surfing, electronic devices, bribes (doesn't necessarily have to be money),
question dumps, etc etc.

(Steppenwolf/31914) Fraud isn't a classic category of criminal law. Instead, the leg...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:39:00 -0500

Fraud isn't a classic category of criminal law. Instead, the legislatures have
seen fit to make certain kinds of fraud criminal: securities fraud, insurance
fraud, etc..  In fact, I suppose that the state is just looking to carve out
another small area to be criminal here as well--I suspect it would be a fraud
statute.

(Egregious/31913) Well, when _is_ fraud considered criminal? This is an honest qu...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:36:00 -0500


Well, when _is_ fraud considered criminal?  This is an honest question,
I don't know.

Upon further reflection, it would probably be considered fraud against
the school, not against the College Board who adminsters the test.

(Steppenwolf/31912) It'd depend on the state, I guess: just a brief skim through the...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:27:00 -0500

It'd depend on the state, I guess: just a brief skim through the Minnesota
statutes didn't find anything that would apply.

(Egregious/31911) Can it be considered criminal fraud?

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 07:22:00 -0500

Can it be considered criminal fraud?

(Lochner/31910) Yeah. Criminalizing it? Like arresting people and locking them...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 26 Oct 2011 05:43:00 -0500

Yeah.  Criminalizing it?  Like arresting people and locking them up?

I think disqualification and academic shame is enough.

(Steppenwolf/31909) I can't really describe how egregious I find criminalizing such ...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 15:47:00 -0500

I can't really describe how egregious I find criminalizing such behavior.

(Gespalder/31908) Your thoughts.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 25 Oct 2011 12:22:00 -0500

Your thoughts.

Lawmakers are considering making cheating on the SAT a crime (no word on the
ACT). Right now it is only referred to prosecutors if money changes hands.

(Salamano/31907) "No Child Left Behind" is the popular name given to the Elementa...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 05:38:00 -0500


"No Child Left Behind" is the popular name given to the Elementary and
Secondary Education Act (ESEA), which was originally passed in 1965 as part of
Lyndon Johnson's "Great Society" package of legislation.  The law is
reauthorized (essentially rewritten) approximately every seven years.  When
ESEA was reauthorized during Bill Clinton's presidency, it was known as the
"Improving America's Schools Act."

What's of interest is whether, and in what form, the controversial elements of
NCLB - its testing and accountability provisions, and the disaggregated
reporting of achievement data - will continue to exist as the legislation is
reauthorized.

(Gespalder/31906) Looks like NCLB (or as I prefer it to be called, No Child Left U...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 16:58:00 -0500

Looks like NCLB (or as I prefer it to be called, No Child Left Untested) will
continue to exist

Empowering Parents through Quality Charter Schools Act - Vote Passed (365-54,
12 Not Voting)

The House passed this bill to expand successful charter school programs, the
first part of an effort to overhaul and reauthorize the No Child Left Behind
Act. The Senate is likely to consider charter school legislation as part of a
broader reauthorization of No Child Left Behind rather than as a stand-alone
bill.

(Salamano/31905) Here's an interesting commentary, penned by Mike Antonucci, on t...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 02 Aug 2011 10:04:00 -0500


Here's an interesting commentary, penned by Mike Antonucci, on the recent "Save
Our Schools" rally in Washington, DC:

http://tinyurl.com/4x6fbrm

When I used to teach graduate courses in administration, one point I spent a
great deal of time and effort trying to drive home was: Don't forfeit the
evaluation initiative!  If school administrators fail to provide teachers,
students and parents with timely, credible, appropriate, and (most important of
all) *useful* information, chances are more than likely that they will have an
evaluation system foisted upon them - one that will be both unwelcome and,
potentially, counter-productive.

I wish I could say that more of my former students took that advice, though I
recognize that it's easier said than done.  (It's great to be a professor!) For
a busy school administrator to develop a robust evaluation system might be
likened to trying to change a tire while the car is rolling.

It's certainly not the fault of *teachers* that highly reductionist data - data
that may not even be sensitive to local instruction - is currently being used
to inform all manner of decision making.  Teachers, who should be among the
prime beneficiaries of standardized testing, are currently more likely to end
up among its primary victims.  And while I strongly sympathize with those who
are pushing back against the current (mis-)applications of standardized
testing, I think it's important to keep in mind that there remains a burning
need to put better evaluation systems in place.  If only we were all putting
our heads together about what such systems should look like...

(Salamano/31904) So, how does anyone think the "grand compromise" currently being...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 01 Aug 2011 15:59:00 -0500


So, how does anyone think the "grand compromise" currently being passed by
Congress will be likely to impact education?

(Salamano/31903) Here are three well produced, clever radio spots developed by th...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 25 Jul 2011 08:51:00 -0500


Here are three well produced, clever radio spots developed by the Los Angeles
based Specialty Family Foundation as part of a marketing campaign for Catholic
schools:

http://www.capso.org/Emailer/BelieveItDriveThru.mp3

http://www.capso.org/Emailer/BelieveItGroceryStore.mp3

http://www.capso.org/Emailer/BelieveItLittleLeague.mp3

I find it of particular interest that the spots make a point of advising
listeners that one need not be Catholic to attend a Catholic school.  I believe
this somewhat of a contentious view within the Catholic education community,
with some viewing the position as an opportunity to proselytize, others
regarding it as a threat to the Catholicity of the schools, still others seeing
it as a purely pragmatic/economic necessity, and yet others understanding it as
a religious obligation.  (To paraphrase the words of  Donald Cardinal Wuerl of
Washington, DC, "We welcome them not because they are Catholic, but because we
are.")

(Salamano/31902) KP>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:09:00 -0500


KP>>

Most private schools aren't that exclusive!

(Karma Police/31901) Maybe Rahm was afraid that his children wouldn't be smart enough...

Karma Police@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 11:01:00 -0500

Maybe Rahm was afraid that his children wouldn't be smart enough to get into
the academically rigorous Chicago magnet schools - which, by the by, are also
fully public.  But you can't buy your way in, you have to earn it with grades
and test scores.

(Salamano/31900) MMM>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 10:13:00 -0500


MMM>>

I'd like, at the very least, to see broader experimentation with arrangements
in which public dollars follow the child to the school of his/her parents'
choosing...accompanied by rigorous research and evaluation.

(Mean Mr Mustard/31899) Of course. I imagine you want Rahm to support some sort of syst...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:53:00 -0500

Of course.  I imagine you want Rahm to support some sort of system that would
pull tax revenues away from the public school system and make them available to
private citizens as educational vouchers--is that closer?

(Salamano/31898) MMM>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:49:00 -0500


MMM>>

I think you know that's not what I have in mind.

(Mean Mr Mustard/31897) You mean like full scholarships for children from poor neighborh...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 09:16:00 -0500

You mean like full scholarships for children from poor neighborhoods?

(Salamano/31896) MMM>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:59:00 -0500


MMM>>

Of course I do.  I only wish he would see fit to support legislation that would
enable parents lacking the means he possesses, to do the same.

(Mean Mr Mustard/31895) And you fully support his choice. Right?

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 08:31:00 -0500

And you fully support his choice.  Right?

(Salamano/31894) Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel decides to send his three children to...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Jul 2011 05:52:00 -0500


Chicago Mayor Rahm Emanuel decides to send his three children to a private
school:  http://tinyurl.com/3r6vvnx

(Salamano/31893) Rian>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:53:00 -0500


Rian>>

If you've participated in ISCA for any length of time, you'd know that I have
often had occasion to say "I'm wrong."  I have no problem, whatsoever doing so.
 I'm capable of making mistakes, being misinformed, and writing stupid things
on occasion, just like any other human being.  And I don't just say that I'm
wrong.  I apologize.  Publicly.

I get the feeling that you're projecting.  After all, you offered an analogy
during the course of our last exchange, in which you tried to make a point that
California was unique by drawing attention to the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals.
When I brought the error to your attention you never acknowledged it.  Had I
made such a gaffe, I assure you that I would have said, "You know what, you're
right and I was wrong."

If education legislation and policy was, in reality, as partisan as you seem to
believe it is, there would have been no point to my writing my original post.
The reality is, however, that while education is a highly contentious arena,
the contentiousness isn't typically distributed along partisan lines.  Just
look at any of the major "hot button" issues in education policy: testing and
accountability, charter schools, merit pay for teachers, national standards,
and you'll find more spirited disagreement AMONG members of the same political
party than BETWEEN them.

Here's a breakdown of the U.S. House of Representatives vote on the most recent
reauthorization of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (on November
19, 2004).

http://clerk.house.gov/evs/2004/roll537.xml

Partisan?

So go ahead.  Bury your head in the sand, stick to your statement, and keep
trashing me.  Be assured that when I am wrong, I will say so, immediately.
Would that you'd see fit to do the same.

(Rian/31892) Salamano, let it go. I said straight up the remark was a quip. ...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 12:19:00 -0500

Salamano, let it go.  I said straight up the remark was a quip.  I think
_anyone_ looking at that statement, completely on its own, would have realized
it was a smart remark, meant strictly as an ironic observation of just how
partisan _everything_ has become, education included.  I dug myself no hole to
claw out of.  When you asked, clearly not getting the irnic humor of the
statement, if I truly believed education was or had become partisan, I said
that I had, and stated why.  I wasn't, at that point, referring to any single
law, state or federal.  i was referring to how I see what's happened to
education, period... and of course what I see locally is going to be what
drives that viewpoint for me.

As for the eyeroll and the "here we go again," it's perfectly well placed. 
I've gotten the impression that all you do is sit here waiting to pounce on
whatever anyone says, regardless of context or level of seriousness, and twist
it to make Salamano right and great.  Frankly, you remind me of my father, and
I haven't spoken to that asshole in twenty years for behaviour exactly like
yours... he's never wrong (even when he is), and has absolutely zero sense of
nuance in tone or voice.

So quite frankly, I'm done.  When I'm even assaulted for my jokes... there's no
point.  I realize you'll accuse me of giving up, having lost, being wrong, etc.
But I won't be here to see it.  You're welcome to your playground.

(Salamano/31891) Rian>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:49:00 -0500


Rian>>

You began this exchange by responding to a comment I made concerning a FEDERAL
education law.  Not a STATE law.  A FEDERAL law.

You then attempted to claw your way out of the hole you dug for yourself by
telling me your remark was a quip "based on the fact that that's about the only
thing in education that's not been partisan in the past... oh, forever."  Those
were your words, buddy, not mine.  You weren't refering to Texas.  You were
responding to my comment about ESEA.

Let's take just one major education policy issue, Rian: charter school
expansion.  Is it a partisan issue?  Is it a partisan issue in Texas?

Give the eye rolling and the "here we go again" bullshit a rest, and admit that
ESEA is/was by no means "the only thing in education that's not been partisan."

(Rian/31890) sighs Here we go again...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 11:45:00 -0500

*sighs* Here we go again...

Salamano, I'm in Texas... where right-wing religious fanatic zealocrats have
been shoving revisionist history and creation "science" down our throats for
the last 20 years, if not longer.  And I'm 40.  So yes, I believe it... and I
could show you a metric ton of evidence littered through our "Texas Edition"
textbooks to illustrate it.
And no, I'm honestly not interested in debating it.  The past several
"standards hearings" in Texas have done so, far beyond my poor ability to add
or detract.

(Salamano/31889) Rian>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 10:53:00 -0500


Rian>>

You wrote:  "It was a _quip_, based on the fact that that's about the only
thing in education that's not been partisan in the past... oh, forever."

Was that a quip, too?  Or, do you actually believe that NCLB was "about the
only thing in education that's not been partisan."

(Rian/31888) rolls eyes No, I haven't forgotten how NCLB came about, etc. ...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:45:00 -0500

*rolls eyes* No, I haven't forgotten how NCLB came about, etc.  It was a
_quip_, based on the fact that that's about the only thing in education that's
not been partisan in the past... oh, forever.  And not just education for that
matter.  So whatever the past history, I suspect that it devolving into
partisan piss-matches NOW is, in fact, of no shock at all.

It loses something in the explanation, though... sorry about that.

(Salamano/31887) Rian>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:17:00 -0500


Rian>>

Lest you forget, NCLB was a *bipartisan* bill, and up to this point, the
various legislative forays into the reauthorization of ESEA have *not* been
partisan.

(Rian/31886) And we're shocked... heh

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 09:03:00 -0500

And we're shocked... *heh*

(Salamano/31885) With John Kline's HR 2445 now in markup, ESEA reauthorization is...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Jul 2011 07:35:00 -0500


With John Kline's HR 2445 now in markup, ESEA reauthorization is devolving into
a partisan issue.

(Miser/31884) Rian>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 08:06:00 -0500

Rian>
One problem is that we don't have any single standardized pre-college
assessment for comparison within the US, much less the world.  When we make
the assumption that a particular country is performing better than the US,
we're comparing apples to oranges.  Internally, we could compare ACT scores for
students coming out of high school, but we've already discussed the pitfalls in
getting results from such as comparison.

So when we say that other countries are performing better than the US when it
comes to education, we're assuming that we're making an even comparison.  When
we say that we used to out-perform these other countries before standardized
testing, we're throwing even more variables into that equation.

The bottom line--we need standardized testing to get a base look at how our
schools are performing.  The policy of blindly throwing more money at problem
schools has been proven ineffective.  We need to identify the problems, and
standardized testing is one of the best tools we have to do so.  We need to use
it as a tool to identify issues--not as a reward/punishment system.  Can we use
other metrics as well?  Absolutely.  But I don't think they're as useful
without the testing.

(Rian/31883) I have just as much doubt about the new system though, and here'...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 07:36:00 -0500

I have just as much doubt about the new system though, and here's why:

Consider external measures.  US education, as measured by comparison against
the rest of the world, has slipped.  Significantly.  Now, we can argue that
we've improved, that our current standardized-curriculum-and-testing model is
better, but that it hasn't improved _as much_ as other nations have, so we've
been caught up with.  And I suppose that's possible.  But that suggest at least
that the model isn't _enough_, because if we've still been caught, the other
nations that have caught and surpassed us have done something more, something
better.  So in that case, the methods and measurement are still flawed. 
Perhaps better than what we had... but not good enough.

BUT: consider internal measures.  Specifically, consider that colleges and
universities tell us that students come to them less prepared (in many cases
not prepared _at all_,) for college level work.  These are, remember, high
school graduates, students who have supposedly succeeded in the system. 
Students who're supposed to be prepared, in the same way and level (and if the
model is better than before, supposed to be even _better_ prepared) as students
of previous eras.  That clearly isn't the case... which suggests that even the
conjecture about improving but not enough, and other nations catching us, is
flawed.

So, again, I come back to conclusion the first: the current models and methods
are flawed, and are a step backward, not forward.  I can't get around the logic
any other way.  And to me, that means we give up on the dogged insistence
(largely from the politicos that came up with the ideas to begin with, and have
the power, incidentally... not the educated and trained professionals in the
field of study) that it's right, that the problem is the students and teachers.
The logic of that simply doesn't hold up.

Is there _better_ than what we had before?  Probably, sure.  After all, other
nations have found better, and not by just duplicating what we did pre-1985 (or
1981, or wherever).  But it isn't what we've been doing... so we go back to
what we know worked better, even if not perfect, and at least we do better
while we lkook for the solutions.  And we actively look; we don't keep trying
to make the square peg fit in the round hold because the powerful non-experts
say it's better because they came up with it.

(Miser/31882) I agree that withholding funds, shutting down schools, etc. is t...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 07:00:00 -0500

I agree that withholding funds, shutting down schools, etc. is the wrong way to
go about it.  If we use standardized testing to identify problem schools, those
problems should be identified.  If the problem is funding, they should be given
MORE money--not LESS.  That said, we shouldn't be giving bonuses to schools
that are already performing well, either.  That just seems backwards to me.

I'm a little leary of this specter we're discussing--the alternative to
standardized testing to gauge school and student performance.  Could it be that
the US (externally) and certain states (internally) _appeared_ to be doing
better because we weren't accurately measuring results?  I have a really
difficult time believing standardized testing is causing more harm than good,
and that doing away with it altogether will give us better results.

As an example, let's say rather than using standardized tests, we measure the
efficacy of our schools by how many students graduate versus dropping out.  If
a student graduates, does that make him or her properly educated?  What about
the kids that drop out to do home schooling, or due to pregnancy?  What about
kids that flunk two or three times but eventually graduate?  Looking strictly
at GPA averages has its own swath of flaws as well.

This is why I have some doubts as far as the old methods working as accurately,
and whether standardized testing has "broken" the system.  Sure, standardized
tests have their own flaws as well, but it seems like a far better metric than
the alternatives.

(Rian/31881) Withholding funds, classifying schools as failing/ unacceptable ...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Jul 2011 06:13:00 -0500

Withholding funds, classifying schools as failing/ unacceptable if their
aggregate test scores are down for a certain number of years in a row
(completely based on those scores, disregarding any and all other factors,
incidentally)... even closing schools, in as little as a handful of years. 
Do-or-die, quite literally.

As for what methods we used and their accuracy for certain issues, or if other
methods than testing would identify those issues, I come back to the previous
statement: what we did before _worked_!  That's the short, simple answer.  US
educarion levels and rankings, outcomes, etc were better both internally (in
preparedness of college students, of workers, etc) and externally (measurement
against other nations by whatever factors were/ are used) in the pre-testing
era.  We quite simply did better then.  So if it was or wasn't less accurate,
it was certainly more effective.  So wouldn't it make sense to go back to that,
to do what we know worked, and get rid of what didn't?

(Miser/31880) Rian>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 19:37:00 -0500

Rian>
I'm not sure what methods we used before standardized testing, either.  I would
venture a guess that it wasn't as accurate when it comes to determining issues.
 Low test scores for a school could identify a real problem in that school.
Low test scores for a child could definitely help identify issues with that
child, such as being taught in a language he or she doesn't understand.
Granted, an educator might identify and rectify issues like that before the
child has to test, but otherwise attention is being brought to the matter if
the child cannot meet our basic criteria for their grade.

And yes, I do believe we as a society need to define a basic criteria of
knowledge for our children.  That criteria becomes the standard for each level
of education our children receive.

When you say do-or-die, are you referring to the practice of withholding funds
or rewards for schools that perform better?  I'm not sure what else would be at
risk.

(Salamano/31879) Egregious>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 14:36:00 -0500


Egregious>>

When it comes to the length of the school year or cumulative number of hours of
instruction, I think the folks at Mackinac have their "incredibly well funded"
heads up their collective ass.

Standardized achievement tests do little more than scratch the surface when it
comes to assessing the full measure of what ought to comprise a child's
education.  Yet, that's what the crew at Mackinac relies upon to proffer
its sweeping prescriptions concerning the length of the school year.

I think we'd all like to see the kids in our public schools receive a fully
rounded education - an education that not only prepares them to be gainfully
productive in a "flat" world in which the rate of change is accelerating at an
ever more dizzying clip, but which nurtures their spirit and soul through
music, arts, and the humanities, and endeavors to keep them physically fit
through a daily regimen of physical education.  We'd like to see them learn
foreign languages, participate in other elective offerings, and school based
extra curricular activities.

Clearly, doing so requires more, not fewer teachers.  And I'm willing to pay
for reduced class size if it's achieved by providing a more robust educational
program instead of simply paying a greater number of teachers to try to prop up
scores on standardized tests.  If we wish to avoid a curriculum that's "a mile
wide and an inch deep," however, we need to expand, not contract the school
year.

I also get the fact that no teacher wishes to lose his or her job.  I don't
blame them one iota for that.  I'd feel exactly the same way.  What bothers me
is the way in which the teachers unions' communications to the public almost
always give the appearance that the union places the interests of the kids
first.  And let's face it; it's effective.  It avoids the appearance of being
self-serving, and renders opposition more difficult.

Surely, the interests of teachers and students often coincide.  But when the
unions are easily able to pass a bill forestalling layoffs after months of
demagoguery concerning how much the kids would suffer from reductions in
education spending, *while setting the table for a seven-day reduction in the
school year in the same bill,* it grates.

(Rian/31878) It's an interesting question, that last. I'm not sure how you g...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 13:24:00 -0500

It's an interesting question, that last.  I'm not sure how you get current
rankingswithout testing... on the other hand, we managed it somehow, before,
without the intensive, all-or-nothing bliutz testing that's the current model.
And how you can evaluate now versus then in a way seems pretty simple: look at
how the US ranks educationally now, compared to the rest of the world, versus
then.  By everybody's take, we seem to have declined.  Then look at what we do
differently.  The two big things seem to be the use of testing, and the
governmental micromanaging nature of "standards" associated with it.

For that matter, leave off international rankings.  Consider just internal
ones: look at graduation rates, look at student achievement in college, look at
preparadness levels of graduates coming onto college: all declined, and
significantly, demonstrating that what we've done has been a detriment.  So
again... you look at what we've done.  NCLB and the national benchmark
standards on testing that surround it, the do-or-die nature of those tests. 
The lengthening school year... but all of those days (and some of the previous)
being devoted _to_ that testing because of how much rests on it.  Etc, etc. 
The only conclusion _I_ can draw, supported by that evidence, is that the
testing-outcome model is flawed.

Yes, a lot of other factors go into it, mostly social and socio-economic.  I
don't care what measure is used; if a child is hungry, if they don;t get
support at home, if they can't understand the language they're being taught or
evaluated in, etc etc, then they're not going to perform well by _any_
measurement, be it grades or testing or whatever else one might dream of.  But
a great many of those factors are outside of the control of schools.  The one
that seems to be is the educational model, how we present and measure
information and knowledge.  So look at the factors we can control... and if
outcomes have been declining in the last twenty to thirty years, and the
current models have been in use for a similar period of time... then I think we
have a culprit.  And the be-all testing model seems to date to the mid-80s,
around the time that the 1981-begun Dept of Education had their policies
widespread for enough time that most or all students were under them.  And the
decline seems to date from right around or just after the same time... late 80s
to about 1990.

Seems like a no-brainer to me.  And if the model reduces outcomes, in the form
of pupil learning... then it's certainly not a good measure, since kids are
passing it and still coming up short.

Now, it's not data-supported.  I didn;t cite a bunch of links and studies in
this post, specifically.  But I think everyone agrees with the broad picture of
what I've outlined: kids seem to be learning less, not performing as well, etc.
And there's no arguing the timing.  And no matter what we do, short of rolling
back the model implemented around the same time as the decline can be traced
to, we don't see the decline reversing.  So... is there something wrong with
the logic?
(I hestitate to ask that question, because clearly I don't think so... but I'm
just as certain you'll disagree.  But I'll ask anyway)

(Miser/31877) Rian>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:57:00 -0500

Rian>
"Consider the ranking and quality of the US education system in the pre-testing
era."

How do you get ranking and quality information without testing?  I'd be all for
changing the school schedule if it were demonstrably helpful.  The instances
where I've seen it done, however, have always apparently been to save money or
jobs.  Those are the wrong reasons to change up school schedules.

I also see good reason for having standards in teaching.  Having a teacher
educate in their own style is great.  But when it comes to content, there are a
lot of things children really need to know coming out of a particular grade or
class.  Standards are extremely important in education.

(Salamano/31876) Rian>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:49:00 -0500


Rian>>

Here's what class size looked like in the "good old days."  I know, because I
was one of the kids in the class.

http://www.capso.org/Emailer/BassettStSchool1960.jpg

Count the number of students.

(Rian/31875) I was posting the same time as your last, Salamano... so to addr...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:40:00 -0500

I was posting the same time as your last, Salamano... so to address one thing
about it: the one question I would raise right away (without, I concede, having
read the article) is if measurement by standardized tests is actually a godo
measure of pupil achievement - that is, if we measure pupil achievement as
learning.  That's a dicey proposition at best; I think everyone would agree to
that.  Personally, I think it isn't, and there's ample data to support that
(though admittedly, probably just as much to support otherwise).  But simply
measuring by standardized tests is going to not convince a whole lot of people,
in all levels.

(Rian/31874) Personally, I think what we need is exactly that: a shorter scho...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:29:00 -0500

Personally, I think what we need is exactly that: a shorter school year.  But
to go with it, we need what I've sugegsted before: get rid of micromanaged
governmental standards, put trained educators in charge of education, and
actually teach, instead of making everything test-score based.  Consider the
ranking and quality of the US education system in the pre-testing era.  Look at
the length of the school year.  How much longer is the school year now?  And
then consider: how many of those extra days are devoted to pre-benchmark prep,
teaching "testing strategy," benchmark testing, post-benchmark review... then
the entire sequence again come time for the benchmark testing in the following
semester.  Not to mention the entire sequence AGAIN come the actual state
testing that "counts."

Furthermore, it's not "21 or 22 students in a class instead of 20."  It's just
personal anecdotes, but I've seen class sizes in the 40's, and for something as
intensive and in need of smaller class sizes as foreign language instruction,
at that, due to budget issues and a lack of teachers.  I kid you not... French
1, two classes of 46 and 41, in high school one year, a friend of the family
was teaching some years back.

So I think so.  Cap the classes, and shorten the school year but actually teach
subject material every day, and I do believe we'll see better outcomes.  The
proof is in the outcomes of the 50's, 60's, and 70s, in fact.  The "good old
days."  But that data doesn't fit the agenda...

(Salamano/31873) Here's one voice claiming that there's no relationship between t...

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:34:00 -0500


Here's one voice claiming that there's no relationship between the amount of
time students spend in school and pupil achievement (as measured by
standardized tests).  Drum roll, please!

http://www.mackinac.org/10840

(Salamano/31872) Egregious>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 12:10:00 -0500


Egregious>>

You wrote:  "but having a shortened school year with more teachers doesn't
strike me as obviously worse than the longer school year with fewer teachers."

Do you really think that having 21 or 22 students in a class instead of 20 will
result in the same deficit to students as a reduction of 7 days of instruction?

(Egregious/31871) > (but which allows for the shortening of the school year by

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 09:23:00 -0500


> (but which allows for the shortening of the school year by
> up to seven days)

I meant to get to this before, but having a shortened school year
with more teachers doesn't strike me as obviously worse than the
longer school year with fewer teachers.

I don't think either of those choices should be enforced by
legislation, though.

(Salamano/31870) Miser>>

Salamano@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 06:45:00 -0500


Miser>>

I don't think I'm allowed to comment on any developments in California,
because, well, you know, the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals and all that...

But seriously.  Although I only get involved in pending legislation that
impacts private schools, AB 455 is but another example of how deeply the state
of California is in the grip of the labor unions.  I marvel at their power.

Look at what the California Teachers Association just managed to accomplish.
After running radio spots every day for months on end in which they warned the
public of massive impending teacher layoffs - a message that, in my opinion,
helped to sustain private school enrollment - they ram through a bill as part
of the budget package that makes it illegal for districts to lay off any
teachers next year (but which allows for the shortening of the school year by
up to seven days). The focal point of the radio ads, of course, was about doing
what's best for the kids.

These are the same people who accuse Republicans of sending children to bed
hungry, and removing the social safety net from those in need.  Now that laying
off teachers is off the table, who's going to end up getting hurt?

By the way, today's Wall Street Journal contains an op-ed piece titled, "Unions
Try to Silence a Think Tank."  Penned by the chairman of the Connecticut-based
Yankee Institute - a member of the State Policy Network - the piece tells of a
complaint brought against the think tank by public union leaders.

"The first enumerated 'fact' in the complaint states that the Yankee Institute
'is funded in part by, and connected to, such 'think tanks' as The Heritage
Foundation, and the Cato Institute and by billionaires such as the Koch
brothers.'"

Now where have I heard that before?  It has such a familiar ring to it...

Reading the short piece is instructive.

http://tinyurl.com/3luldaf

(Miser/31869) A new bill just passed the California Senate and is expected to ...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 05:42:00 -0500

A new bill just passed the California Senate and is expected to be signed into
law by Gov. Jerry Brown.  It allows unions to appoint half of city and county
civil service commissions.  How can this possibly be a good idea?

http://preview.tinyurl.com/3sllyrc

Sal, I'm assuming you've seen this coming down the line already..?

(Egregious/31868) Sorry, I was responding to the pillow fight that was happening j...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 08:53:00 -0500

Sorry, I was responding to the pillow fight that was happening just before.

It reminded me of middle school, but not in a good way.  No one talk to Rachel.

(Miser/31867) I already provided a pretty reasonable solution for the issue. ...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 08:51:00 -0500

I already provided a pretty reasonable solution for the issue.  Do you have
anything useful to add to the discussion?

(Egregious/31866) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 06:15:00 -0500


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ad_hominem

(Miser/31865) "Bring on Standarized test scores as a way to measure teacher ef...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 05:37:00 -0500

"Bring on Standarized test scores as a way to measure teacher effectiveness!!"

Isn't this kind of like saying we should do away with money because people
commit crimes for it?  Or do you have a better suggestion for gauging
student/teacher performance?  If anything, this perhaps demonstrates that a
third party should be involved in testing.  With technology where it is, this
seems like a pretty reasonable solution.

(Miser/31864) It sounds like the real concern about not being able to pay unio...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 04:58:00 -0500

It sounds like the real concern about not being able to pay union dues directly
out of one's paycheck is that less will be contributed.  Why would this be the
case?  The only thing I can think of is that with automatic deduction people
simply aren't paying attention to how much of their paycheck is going to the
union.  If the money is actually going through their hands and they have to
write a check, they'll be far more aware of how much of their paycheck is going
to union coffers.  I fail to see how this could possibly be a bad thing.

I'm not sure what union dues have to do with charity, but I've never had a
charity take money directly out of my paycheck.  I usually just write a check,
drop some bills in the can, or make other (non-monetary) donations, etc.

(Pluck Duck/31863) The "list of funding sources" was a response to your assertion t...

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 05 Jul 2011 16:50:00 -0500

The "list of funding sources" was a response to your assertion that there was a
contradiction between my stating that it doesn't disclose its funding sources
and then mentioning one of its disclosed funding sources.  As you pointed out
without meaning to, nearly 2/3 of its funding is from undisclosed sources.


As for how the Mackinac center uses the media and its media connections, why
not read through this article from the Mackinac center, itself.  It explains
point blank their approach to the media, why they would have two of their
staffers be ex editors for a major media outlet, and how it's not just about
direct funding, but about being able to get their message out both directly and
indirectly.

http://atlasnetwork.org/wp-content/uploads/downloads/2010/11/chapter-9-thinking
-through-a-successful-think-tank-reed.pdf


As for how this functions nationally with the sister organizations under the
SPN and the Heritage Foundation ties...

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/04/state-policy-network-union-bargaining?p
age=1


The bottom line is this is a national conservative business movement disgiused
as academic think tanks (disguised, even, man I need a new client) which has
been gaining very strong political power via lobbying, media campaigns, and
connections to the press which give them high visibility op-ed columns and
exposure. They trump up false studies to appear legit.

And they're doing serious harm across the nation.

I'll let you have the last word because you'll take it anyway.

http://motherjones.com/politics/2011/04/state-policy-network-union-bargaining?p
age=1