Future Of ISCA BBS

(The After Party/19289) Lochner

The After Party@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:36:00 -0600

Lochner

  Nohirsute is saying in response to Smoke, that to go email->im in google,
  you just copy/paste yourself. That way you can pick up where you left
  off.

client vs. server

  I'm writing a (java) client now.
  I'm fine with making the offline x becomes mail.
  I don't think there is a client or server solution for when someone is
  'ghosted'. Can the server detect this?

(Kena/19288) Honestly, I'd think that tweaking the BBS code, itself, for chan...

Kena@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 03:39:00 -0600

Honestly, I'd think that tweaking the BBS code, itself, for changes like this,
is probably the wrong approach.  Doing stuff like this on a client, which is
almost infinitely more flexible and less likely to make system-wide mistakes or
unliked global changes, is probably an easier way to go about things.  AND it
can be accomplished by anyone, at any time, who wants to play with the codee,
as opposed to the BBS code which, one imagines, will be under tight control,
and rightfully so.

Hmmm... I'm gonna have to take a peek. I've never really *looked* at how the
clients work.

(Lochner/19287) Don't follow you there.

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Feb 2012 02:33:00 -0600

Don't follow you there.

(Nohirsute/19286) gmail to chat -- cut & past it YOURSELF into chat window

Nohirsute@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Feb 2012 19:20:00 -0600

gmail to chat -- cut & past it YOURSELF into chat window

(Smoke Eater/19285) With GMail, the reverse is not true. You can't start an email a...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 02 Jan 2012 01:31:00 -0600

With GMail, the reverse is not true.  You can't start an email and send it to
someone's chat windo.

(Turanga Leela/19284) FWIW, if X messaging is instant messaging (it is), and Mail> is ...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 18:24:00 -0600

FWIW, if X messaging is instant messaging (it is), and Mail> is email (it is,
in a sense), then let's look at how some clients work.

AOL: You can't IM an offline user
ICQ: You cam IM an offline user, message(s) is(are) stored on the server
Y!M: You can IM an offline user, message(s) is(are) stored on the server
MSN: meh. too much spam, I don't remember the features
Google Talk: You can IM an offline user, messages is (are) stored on the
server, unless you turn the feature off. Missed messages are sent to your
gmail.  Google does it perfectly.

(Lochner/19283) "Lochner> I think that is a shame as the text interface is the m...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:57:00 -0600


"Lochner> I think that is a shame as the text interface is the main reason I
use ISCA. If improvements can be made to the command line interface, then why
not?"

  Because nobody who wants to do any work on the project has any interest
  in improving the command line, and there's only so much you can do with it.

  If somebody has an idea for a change and there's a coder who wants to do it,
  fine.

(WORF/19282) Lochner> I think that is a shame as the text interface is the ma...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 16:47:00 -0600


Lochner> I think that is a shame as the text interface is the main reason I use
ISCA. If improvements can be made to the command line interface, then why not?

As for the Mail/X debate, I fall on the side of having one system handle the
two. They're both messaging. There is no real design reason the two need to be
separate and from a programming standpoint having one system to handle both
(even if they are exposed to the user as two separate options) would be simpler
and more elegant.

As far as moving to Gestalt, is the "invisible user" bug going to be fixed
before the switchover?

Or is that something we'll have to deal with going forward and fix sometime
down the line?

(Lochner/19281) I agree. I'm only saying that there are no plans to make any ma...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 11:03:00 -0600

I agree.  I'm only saying that there are no plans to make any major
alternatiosn to the command-line interface.  To the extent people make changes
or add new features, it will most likely not be to the command-line/telnet
interface.

(Vanity/19280) I think we're at a point where coders/designers and end-users di...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:48:00 -0600

   I think we're at a point where coders/designers and end-users differ
markedly in their perceptions of simplicity and functionality.  But then I
suppose the BBS was always an experimental project, and was never intended to
be user-friendly.  Still, getting feedback from the end-users might be
considered part of the experiment...

(Lochner/19279) Again, the roadmap is that we will move to Gestalt, and other th...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 05:28:00 -0600


Again, the roadmap is that we will move to Gestalt, and other than updating
Gestalt to add features found in DOC which Gestalt presently lacks, there are
no plans to extend the command-line interface or otherwise alter the default
behavior of the BBS.

Whether we do that down the road will be a combination of a policy selection by
the board and a technological decision by the ISCABBS Technology Committee,
which has yet to be formed but is on my agenda for 2012.

(The After Party/19278) Tanj

The After Party@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 04:50:00 -0600

Tanj

  I, for one, want the server to store my x-messages.
  At work, we use Q Messenger. I LOVE the fact that it stores my instant
  messages for as long as I want (i have ti set forever). So much useful
  info is stored in my instant messages. They are searchable and filterable.

All

  I'd say we need to provide the options and agree on a ISCABBS default.

(Lochner/19277) Again, we are highly unlikely to significantly the way Mail & X'...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 04:32:00 -0600


Again, we are highly unlikely to significantly the way Mail & X's behave in the
default code.  If you want your X's archived or saved, you can use client
software which does that.

(Tanj/19276) For me, x-messages are instant, transient, interrupting, and hig...

Tanj@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 04:02:00 -0600

For me, x-messages are instant, transient, interrupting, and highly
temporal -- they are the electronic equivalant of a phone call.  Mail
messages are the electronic equivalant of... Mail.  They are permanent,
can be read at ones convienence, and I write them more formally than
instant messages.

The logging of instant messages bugs me a lot.  It would be amazingly
trivial to take all of my voice calls and in-personal conversations, run
them through a speech-to-text program, and archive the results so that
I can remember what I said and what was said to me.  Doing that is not
only fucking rude, it's also against the law in some areas.  I don't
understand why the electronic equivalent of something that is
breathtakingly rude in real life is so widely adopted, but that doesn't
mean that I, personally, want to be part of it.

Gestalt's approach allows users to select which level of privacy
they want; your approach forces your level of logging (that is, everything)
on everyone.  I hate that.

Gestalt offers two protocols: in one, a message of mostly-arbitrary length
is sent to the server and a notification is sent to the user (if they are
logged in); in the other, a brief message is sent directly to the user
if they are logged in (in the olden days, the x-message went client-to-
client, without even going *through* the server, but that was difficult to
maintain going forward).  The x-message system has a bunch of status
stuff (are they busy, are they writing you a message, what conversational
mode are they in, who is allowed to interrupt them verssus who must wait);
Mail doesn't have any of those.

Them that writes the code makes the rules.  You, as a software developer,
can do one of four things:
  - Write your own client that blends X-messages and Mail in whatever manner
    you see fit, and then use it.  If having other people not using it burns
    your beans (why?), then try and make it the best client out there so that
    everyone uses it.
  - Write a gateway that speaks Gestalt's protocols, and silently maps all
    x-messages to Mail.  Tell everyone how cool it would be for them to
    use that instead of the standard Gestalt servers.  People who use your
    gateway and end up sending hundreds of mail messages instead of
    x-messages will end up driving the recipients to your gateway (or to
    de-friend them).
  - Write an entire non-Gestalt system that looks just like ISCABBS but has
    your ideas in them, and say "here is something that is better, plus it
    was written in this century!"  After thirteen years of debate, ISCA might
    agree with you and start using it.
  - Port DOC to Linux, but add this new feature.

(Smoke Eater/19275) How to do it is irrelevant. The operative question is whether i...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:44:00 -0600

How to do it is irrelevant.  The operative question is whether it should be
done.

You are arguing that they are the same thing, CL is arguing that they are not.

Neither way is universal.

I say throw the poll open to the entire userbase and see what happens. 
Automatically assuming that something should be done because it's the way *you*
work is arrogant.

(Banshee/19274) Just for my own bemusement, let's recapb&

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:07:00 -0600


Just for my own bemusement, let's recapb&

*  X messages and Mail are completely different things.  X messages are
   notified instantly to the user and not stored on the server, while Mail
   messages have no direct notification to the user, but are stored on the
   server.

*  It might be a good idea to make Mail behave like X messages, by
   notifying the user when they get a new Mail message

*  It might be a good idea to store X messages on the server, to make them
   more accessible, like Mail messages.

*  X messages and Mail are completely different things.


Ah.  Gotcha.


And Copper, I understand that X messages and Mail messages are handled by
different code.  Read that again.  I get it.  What I'm saying is that the
choice to handle them differently doesn't actually make them different.
Both facilities consist of sending a blob of text to a user.  If you read
the bullet points above again, you'll see the discussion is already about
convergence.

But then there is ...

  "only three reasons YOU use ISCA Mail>.  Unless I feel like actually
   engaging with someont real time, I generally prefer to use Mail> to
   correspond with other privately.  And I'm pretty sure I'm not alone
   here."

Can you explain this?  What's to stop someone from engaging with you real
time when you send them a Mail message vs. an X message?  It's as though
you believe the protocol you use to communicate with someone can force them
not to communicate back to you in a different way.  That's not even how the
BBS works currently -- you're just assuming the user would Reply to your
mail instead of Xing you.

Again, what I'm talking about is simply removing half the communication
code and tweaking the other half.  For example, get rid of X messages
and add a priority flag to Mail messages.  Alias the X command to be a
new Mail message with a priority of 1.  Anything with a priority of 1
is delivered instantly to the user (with text) while anything else (like
a message started with the Mail command) just notifies the user it exists.

That isn't a complete rewrite of everything.  You get the advantages
of storing all messages on the server in a single place and the instant
notification for Mail messages.  And I'm all about simplification.  Pull
that off and most users wouldn't even notice the change while at the same
time removing half the communication code.  I consider that progress.

(Jefferson Davis/19272) I have to agree with SE...X's are not Mail>.

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 19:40:00 -0600

I have to agree with SE...X's are not Mail>.

(Rian/19271) blinks I think for anyone still here after all this time, the ...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:35:00 -0600

*blinks* I think for anyone still here after all this time, the string
c > x > o > (space) (space) n > (space) is pretty simple.  But okay.

(Vanity/19270) In this BBS, there is no such thing as a "simple" configuration ...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 18:31:00 -0600

   In this BBS, there is no such thing as a "simple" configuration setting.

(Smoke Eater/19269) I don't find it dotty or daft, what I find dotty or daft is the ...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:45:00 -0600

I don't find it dotty or daft, what I find dotty or daft is the assumption that
one users' experience is every user's experience.

(Rian/19268) And for that matter, fuctionality to prevent the confusion of ge...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:47:00 -0600

And for that matter, fuctionality to prevent the confusion of getting an x
message while writing mail> already exists.  It's a simple config setting;
justdisable receipt of x messages while posting.

Personally (just to weigh in as a user here), I'd hate a change that merged
mail> and x messages somehow.  I don't see them as the same at all, and I find
the notion rather daft. Amusingly so, but... well, the old-style word would be
"dotty."

(Lochner/19267) I assure you that we are not going to do much major re-writing o...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 14:08:00 -0600


I assure you that we are not going to do much major re-writing of the command-
line interface to the BBS.  To the extent we alter interfaces, it'll be
protocols and APIs, not gim.

(Vanity/19266) For the record, some people don't use a client program to interf...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 12:09:00 -0600

   For the record, some people don't use a client program to interface with the
BBS.
   Mail> is slightly more difficult to use than x-messages (requiring extra
keystrokes, requiring you to get out of whatever you're engaged on in the BBS
at the moment) and if Mail and x-messages were to be merged in some form --
which, I gather from the tenour of the discussion isn't at all likely -- it
should be done in a way that doesn't diminish the utility of either form of
communication.
   What might be useful would be combining *access* to both Xs and Mail>
through a common command structure, e.g., typing "x" at the prompt and entering
the name of the addressee would then allow you either to start typing the
x-message directly, or to add another command to get into Mail, all without
leaving your current activity.  That could also abolish one of the BBS' oddest
quirks: the confusion arising when you get an X-message *while composing
Mail>*.

(Copper Lethe/19265) "I think we're at a good point to merge Mail and X

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:47:00 -0600


"I think we're at a good point to merge Mail and X
messages to simplify code -- not rewrite everything."

Right now, messegaes and X messages are two completely different systems.  And
with gestalt, they're actually each handled by different software.  So you are
actually talking about interfacing with other systems.

It's a bit more complicated than you seem to believe that it is.  And frankly,
I honestly don't think that it's a change that most people would be interested
in.  I think people X message more than anything else on here, so a merging of
the two doesn't really make that much sense to me.

And, quite frankly, I think you're talking about the only three reasons YOU
use ISCA Mail>.  Unless I feel like actually engaging with someont real time, I
generally prefer to use Mail> to correspond with other privately.  And I'm
pretty sure I'm not alone here.

The most important thing here, I think, is that the current process works.  We
could make some improvements, for sure.  Notification of emails, for instance,
dumping X messages to Mail> if the user has logged out (though, a client could
likely do this more easily), but I don't see the benefit in changing the system
altogether, I don't think we'd see any real benefit from such an effort.

(Banshee/19264) Copper Lethe> "So, what you really want is a complete rewrite o...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:23:00 -0600


Copper Lethe>  "So, what you really want is a complete rewrite of everything,
from the ground up, because you think Mail> and eXpress messages are the same
thing."

No.  Actually, the opposite.  I think we're at a good point to merge Mail and X
messages to simplify code -- not rewrite everything.  All that needs to be done
is to hook Mail messages into the notification system and show the first 5
lines of the message.  Then you alias the X message command to Mail and your
done.  Is that a "complete rewrite of everythging"?  Because saying that seems
rather alarmist.

We're not talking about rewriting the email specification here.  We aren't
talking about interfacing with other systems.  This is ISCA mail.  The only,
and I stress ONLY reasons people use Mail on ISCA falls into one of three
categories;

1)  The user is offline  (70 pts, family fued style)
2)  The message is longer than 5 lines (25 FFPs)
3)  You want to store the message on the server for some reason (5 FFPs)

(Copper Lethe/19263) "As they were "intended"? X messages on BBSes were the predeces...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 11:09:00 -0600


"As they were "intended"?  X messages on BBSes were the predecessor of Instant
Message clients."

So?
They were still intended to be real-time interaction.  Mail> is not, that's the
point.

"You don't need to repeat your opinion or position again and again in order to
try to stifle discussion."

No one is trying to stifle discussion, KAM.  If you would like to discuss
whether or not a thread is worthwhile, or who you think should be allowed to
contribute to a thread, I'm sure that there is a more appropriate place to do
that.

"And now do you see what you have at that point?  Now you can remove all the X
message code entirely.  It's like magic or some shit."

Ah.  Gotcha.

So, what you really want is a complete rewrite of everything, from the ground
up, because you think Mail> and eXpress messages are the same thing.  Cool.

(KAM/19260) SE> Granted, not all ideas are good ideas, but attempting to bur...

KAM@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 10:10:00 -0600


SE> Granted, not all ideas are good ideas, but attempting to bury any
discussion of it with long-winded posts that repeat the same thing *IS* BS.

If there's a technical reason why it can be done, fine, say it and move on. If
you are philosophically opposed to something, fine, say it and move on.

You don't need to repeat your opinion or position again and again in order to
try to stifle discussion.

(Tanj/19259) Gestalt has push notification of Mail; if you get mail, it says ...

Tanj@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:24:00 -0600

Gestalt has push notification of Mail; if you get mail, it says "[ You have 
new
mail from Tanj ]". Already in there.  there's a whole framework for push
notifications, plus an http/xml gateway using long polling.

(Banshee/19258) Copper Lethe> I really don't understand your adherence to the s...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:20:00 -0600


Copper Lethe>  I really don't understand your adherence to the status quo on
this.  Saying things like;

  "On ISCA, X messages seem to be treated as they were intended - instant
messages while a user is logged in"

As they were "intended"?  X messages on BBSes were the predecessor of Instant
Message clients.  But why would you think it is a good idea to stop there?  Why
don't you think that something closer to XMPP, which seems to me is the
evolution of Instant Messaging, is even better still?  We don't have to keep
things the the way they are just because its the way they have always been.
This isn't the "How To Keep ISCA BBS The Same" forum.

We all understand the BBS code *treats* X messages and Mail differently.
There's different code handling different delivery mechanisms, different
limitations and different storage files.  If you want to say the BBS handles
them in different ways, that's fine.  But you have yet to explain why they are
fundamentally different in functionality.  I don't care that the BBS treats
them differently.  I get that.  But even you just agreed that "Notifying of new
mail is a good idea", so take that one step further and give the user the first
5 lines of a new Mail message when that notification comes through.

And now do you see what you have at that point?  Now you can remove all the X
message code entirely.  It's like magic or some shit.

(Smoke Eater/19257) CL>

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 09:17:00 -0600

CL>
   While I agree with you that X messages and Mail> are different, the advice
to use Mail> and ignore X messages doesn't really fit for what Banshee's trying
to say

KAM>
   It's not a question of whether the programmers do or don't want to work on
feature x.  It's a question of is that a good direction to go in, and CL is
obviously disagreeing.  The fact that you're discouraging the bantering
(calling it BS incorrectly) implies that any feature someone dreams up is
automatically a good idea....  not true.

(KAM/19256) Y'know, if you don't wanna work on it, just say you don't wanna ...

KAM@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 08:47:00 -0600


Y'know, if you don't wanna work on it, just say you don't wanna work on it and
move on. It's been a good decade since I've seen so much BS bantering about
things like this, I kinda liked it like that.

(Copper Lethe/19255) Notifying of new mail is a good idea, but it's not as simple as ...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 08:11:00 -0600


Notifying of new mail is a good idea, but it's not as simple as it is to notify
that you're close to idle time-out - there is not "push notification" really,
it's just a message that pops up when you're idle for too long, or when you
reach a certain point in your log in.  Aside from time, there's no real
trigger.  With Mail>, there would need to be a mechanism in constantly check
for new Mail> (or maybe an eXpress message attempt when someone attempts to
send mail).  Doable, I think, though.

As far as what other BBS's do - the fact that other BBS's do it doesn't mean
that it's a good idea, or any easier to do.  It depends on how X messages are
treated by the system and by the users.  On ISCA, X messages seem to be treated
as they were intended - instant messages while a user is logged in, like AIM or
some other real time systems, whereas Mail> is intended for overall
correspondance, like email.  It's really a silly argument - if you want Mail>
and X messages combined, just use Mail> and ignore X messages all together.

(Smoke Eater/19254) The way Data's Lab makes it work is built into the code for X me...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 07:39:00 -0600

The way Data's Lab makes it work is built into the code for X messages.  If the
person is not online, it calls the mail code.

The reverse is *not* true, so using that as an example to buttress Banshee's
argument does not work.

(KAM/19253) Banshee brings up another good point - why can't the BBS notify ...

KAM@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 06:41:00 -0600


Banshee brings up another good point - why can't the BBS notify you when you
have new mail? It already tells you when you're close to your idle time-out or
the 4-hour limit, so clearly there's push notification built in.

Copper Lethe> Yes, they function differently, have different data structures,
and blah blah blah. They're both still a form of messages. Other BBSes have
been able to capture an X message and save it as a Mail>, and have done so
since the mid 1990s. I don't see why it would be so hard to do.

Now, if you want to argue "too much work for too little benefit", I could go
with you on that. But no reason to keep beating this drum about how they're
different, when their differences don't matter if other developers have been
able to make them work together.

(Copper Lethe/19252) Banshee: You can make this change for yourself right now. Stop...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:30:00 -0600


Banshee:  You can make this change for yourself right now.  Stop using eXpress
messages, and only use Mail>.  Done.

Meanwhile, you pointed out that we should do what makes sense for the user, and
I agree.  Continuing to keep eXpess messages and Mail>, which are different
functions, have different purposes, use different datafiles and work completely
different, separate makes the most sense for the user, in my opinion.  If you
want to start treating Mail> as eXpress messaging, you are, of course, free to
do so.

(Banshee/19251) DesCartes> And I personally feel that is a deficiency of the BB...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 04:06:00 -0600


DesCartes>  And I personally feel that is a deficiency of the BBS.  Why
shouldn't you get notified you have a new Mail message?  Every email client *I*
use notifies me when I get a new email.  And every IM client I use notifies me
when I get a new message.

Smoke Eater>  In your opinion, Xs and Mails might be different.  That doesn't
make it a foregone conclusion.  They are lines of text, sent to individual
users.  You can *treat* them differently, you can put different limitations on
them, but it doesn't make them fundamentally different things.

We can continue treating them as different things.  We can continue to put
different limitations on them.  But unless you are talking about implementing
attachments or CC/BCC functionality into ISCA Mail, they are both just blobs of
text sent from one user to another user.

(DesCartes/19250) They're not functionally the same. If I sit at the Lobby> prompt...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 03:36:00 -0600

They're not functionally the same. If I sit at the Lobby> prompt doing nothing,
I won't know I get a Mail> message, but I will know I get an X.

(Smoke Eater/19249) In your opinion, they are Mail>. That doesn't make it a foregon...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 02:37:00 -0600

In your opinion, they are Mail>.  That doesn't make it a foregone conclusion,
and for plenty of people, X messages are not mail and shouldn't be treated as
such.  There's a way to have a balance between the two.

(Banshee/19248) Jefferson Davis> That's an excellent point. And because Mail a...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 02:20:00 -0600


Jefferson Davis>  That's an excellent point.  And because Mail and X's are
functionally the same, save for the 5-line limit, I'm thinking there's a pretty
elegant solution to that problem...

Get rid of the concept of X messages completely, make everything Mail, and then
when a new Mail arrives you give the user the first 5 lines (just like an X)
with a <M>ore or <S>kip prompt if there's more than 5 lines (like reading a
long post...).

The important thing is to not make the changes too drastic or complex.
First and foremost it should be about solving problems.  And my biggest problem
is the "Sorry X left before you finished your message".  Treat Xs like Mail.
Because they are Mail.

(Jefferson Davis/19247) Banshee> The trouble with the five-line limit as that it is just...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:56:00 -0600

Banshee> The trouble with the five-line limit as that it is just bad if you ARE
actually trying to carry on a conversation. Many times I've sent three X
messages that could have just as easily been made into one if I had been given
the chance to finish. I think most people have the good sence not to write 50
text lines in one message.

(Jefferson Davis/19246) Green> To me, it is a minor issue. I can't tell you how many tim...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 19:52:00 -0600

Green> To me, it is a minor issue. I can't tell you how many times I have been
typing an X to someone, it was lengthy, only to find out when it was finished
that all I had just typed was lost because so-and-so left, whether
intentionally or not, before I finished my message. We need the option in those
kinds of cases to put our Xs in someone's Mail>.

(Copper Lethe/19245) It's not that I want to call them different things, it's that th...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:54:00 -0600


It's not that I want to call them different things, it's that they are
completely different things.  They have different purposes, use different
functions, and soon, will use completely separate servers.  One is for
real-time instant interaction.  The other is not.  What makes them separate is
why each exists.

(Banshee/19244) Just because you want to call them different things or treat the...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:46:00 -0600


Just because you want to call them different things or treat them in different
ways doesn't make them different things.

Yahoo! was your example.  Even though you said Yahoo doesn't store the messages
on the server, they do.  And Yahoo let's you search both messages together.
From a user's perspective, they become unified.

We don't have to keep doing things the same way just because that's the way
it's always been done.  Do what makes sense for the user.

(Copper Lethe/19243) Yes, Mail> and eXpress messages aren't even remotely the same th...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:42:00 -0600


Yes, Mail> and eXpress messages aren't even remotely the same thing.  Yahoo
developing a system where your instant messages are archived with your mail
does not change that.  They're completely different systems, different data
files, different functions.  This is particularly true with Gestalt, where the
functions are handled by different servers.

(Banshee/19242) KAM> Like I said, keep them on the server and let the client de...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:42:00 -0600


KAM>  Like I said, keep them on the server and let the client decide what to do
when it reads them.  Like POP email.  Best of both worlds -- AND, you'll never
have to worry about the "Sorry, KAM left before you finished your message"
problem.  Queue it for when you come back.  That would be nice.

(Banshee/19241) Jefferson Davis> My concern for removing the X message 5-line l...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:40:00 -0600


Jefferson Davis>  My concern for removing the X message 5-line limit would be
that users could be hit with an absolute wall of text in the middle of reading
or conversing with something or someone else.  That would be annoying.

I wouldn't mind an X message that came from the system that told me I had a
new Mail message, though.  As it stands now users must actively do something to
know they've got a new mail message -- which is a little dated, IMHO.

(KAM/19240) I have no objection to keeping them on the server. Could it be p...

KAM@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:38:00 -0600


I have no objection to keeping them on the server. Could it be possible for the
user to decide whether or not they want it on the server, or in the client, or
neither?

(Banshee/19239) Copper Lethe>

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 17:38:00 -0600


Copper Lethe>

  "Mail and X messages are not even remotely the same thing."

  "That's like saying that email and Yahoo Messenger, which are probably the
   best Mail>/eXpress message analogies, are the same thing.  They aren't,
   not even a little bit."

  "Yahoo Messages (for instance), aren't stored on a server at all."


Mail and X messages are not even "remotely" the same thing?  "Not even a little
bit"?  Email vs. Yahoo Messenger you say?!?!

http://info.yahoo.com/privacy/us/yahoo/messenger/pc/details.html

* "You may now archive Yahoo! instant messages along with Yahoo! Mail messages
and search them TOGETHER (in addition to Voice Mail, SMS, call history, and
more)."

* "Messages stored on Yahoo! servers in this manner are accessible from any
computer system or device able to use the latest versions of Yahoo! Messenger
for PC."


If you are paranoid about leaving X messages on the server, the client should
have the option to delete them.  Just like POP or IMAP email works.  If you are
worried about someone sending you something that gets stored on the server,
that same argument would have to apply to storing email on the server, since
you can't dictate (at least currently) how users chose to communicate with you.

(River Rat/19238) Does Gestalt have the guide flag?

River Rat@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:56:00 -0600

Does Gestalt have the guide flag?

(River Rat/19237) Dec 30, 2011 13:30 from Bdot

River Rat@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 15:55:00 -0600

Dec 30, 2011 13:30 from Bdot
people still use 'x' messages?
[Future Of ISCA BBS> msg #19228

Guides rely on the 'x' messages.

(Green/19236) One problem with relying on x messages to go to mail if the reci...

Green@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:10:00 -0600

One problem with relying on x messages to go to mail if the recipient is
offline lies in the fact that if a user is disconnected without having logged
off, the system thinks that he/she is still online. Thus, the x message would
be "delivered". For what we do, maybe that's not a big thing, but if one wishes
to rely on such transitional behavior from messaging to mail, that should be
borne in mind. Maybe that wouldn't be an issue on Gestalt, but I'd guess that
it would still be the case.

(Lochner/19235) I was chugging along nicely and got shellacked with this week wi...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 14:00:00 -0600


I was chugging along nicely and got shellacked with this week with a lawsuit.
I'll have some time to work on it this weekend but candidly it's not even close
to being ready for prime time, and I need to move it over to the testbed
environment once it's ready for more testing.

I'll continue to post updates as I get time to work on it.

(Jefferson Davis/19234) Rainmaiker> I agree...I'd just like my X's to someone to go into...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:52:00 -0600

Rainmaiker> I agree...I'd just like my X's to someone to go into Mail> if they
are off and I choose to do that.

(Jefferson Davis/19233) SE> I know that Datas Lab (the former Brinta) automatically conv...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:50:00 -0600

SE> I know that Datas Lab (the former Brinta) automatically converts Xs to
Mail> if someone goes offline in the middle of an incoming message.

(Jefferson Davis/19232) Banshee> I don't suppose that X Messages HAVE to have an X line ...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:49:00 -0600

Banshee> I don't suppose that X Messages HAVE to have an X line limit if the
programming, coding is such that there does not need to be one. Not all BBS's
have X line limits.

(Jefferson Davis/19231) Lochner> Any idea when that web interface may go live?

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:30:00 -0600

Lochner> Any idea when that web interface may go live?

(Copper Lethe/19230) "If there's security concerns with storing X messages on the ser...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 13:08:00 -0600


"If there's security concerns with storing X messages on the server, the same
concerns would apply to storing Mail on the server."

Mail and X messages are not even remotely the same thing.
That's like saying that email and Yahoo Messenger, which are probably the best
Mail>/eXpress message analogies, are the same thing.  They aren't, not even a
little bit.

Email is stored on a server.  You can leave that mail on the server (which
these days most people do, either Gmail, Hotmail, Yahoo, or IMAP), or you can
download it and delete it from the server (POP mail, for instance).  Meanwhile,
Yahoo Messages (for instance), aren't stored on a server at all.

Personally, I don't think that there's much of a security concern with leaving
eXpress messages server side.  In fact, it's probably more secure, in my
opinion.  But I think people could be responsible for their own security in
that matter, and honestly, other than that, there's really no good reason to
leave them on the server in the way that it's done today, particularly when
leaving their storage to a client will not be difficult.

(Rainmaker/19229) Yes, once I get through the queue to log in, I always find all m...

Rainmaker@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:44:00 -0600

Yes, once I get through the queue to log in, I always find all my friends
online and send an X to each of them to let them know I'm here.

(Bdot/19228) people still use 'x' messages?

Bdot@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:30:00 -0600

people still use 'x' messages?

(Rainmaker/19227) and Perhaps, since most people have been on here since 1993 and ...

Rainmaker@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:16:00 -0600

and Perhaps, since most people have been on here since 1993 and have learned
what they like, dislike etc. it would be nice if most of the features we've
discussed were options.  Truthfully, I'd love sa common messaging interface
whether it is mail or X message and didn't have to first loiok to see if the
intended target was online, then either X or J.ump to Mail and then type the
message.

To each his or her own, but options can be nice.

(Smoke Eater/19226) If there's disagreement on the feature, then perhaps it should b...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:16:00 -0600

If there's disagreement on the feature, then perhaps it should be something
built into a client...that way people who want it can have it and vice versa.

(Tanj/19225) Yeah, and I loathe Facebook's merging of the two. Instant messa...

Tanj@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:14:00 -0600

Yeah, and I loathe Facebook's merging of the two.  Instant messages are not
email.

You are, of course, more than welcome to implement that.  But I'll be trying
to figure out a way to turn it off, m'self.

(Justin Case/19224) Yeah, it's called Facebook :)

Justin Case@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:07:00 -0600

Yeah, it's called Facebook :)

(Smoke Eater/19223) That's something that can be built into the client or the server...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:04:00 -0600

That's something that can be built into the client or the server.  I'm on
another BBS that does that....

(Rainmaker/19222) Why not just automatically make an "X" into a mail message if th...

Rainmaker@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 08:02:00 -0600

Why not just automatically make an "X" into a mail message if the target is
offline...and possibly if the message goes beyond 5 lines?

(Banshee/19221) If there's security concerns with storing X messages on the serv...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:51:00 -0600


If there's security concerns with storing X messages on the server, the same
concerns would apply to storing Mail on the server.  Furthermore, the entire
system has been using an unencrypted communication protocol for 20 years.  I
think calling out security, at this point, isn't really qualified.

(Banshee/19220) In a perfect world, the only distinction between Mail and Xpress...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:44:00 -0600


In a perfect world, the only distinction between Mail and Xpress messages are;

1)  Xpress message delivery is an interrupt
2)  Xpress messages have a X line limit

Functionally, everything else about them is the same.  They should be stored
together, searched at the same time, etc.  Some people might complain that they
don't want X's and Mail all mixed up -- but I don't see a difference.  I only
use Mail in two scenarios;  the message is more than 5 lines or the user isn't
online.

I'm far more frustrated when I want to reference an X messgae I got a few days
back and I can't ... but I've got plenty of pointless Mail stored up.

(Lunenburg/19219) I like the idea of server-side X-messages to support offline or ...

Lunenburg@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:27:00 -0600

I like the idea of server-side X-messages to support offline or asynchronous
messaging.  As with a website polling the server for newly-received messages,
or logging in to see "You got 5 X's while you were gone".

(Tanj/19218) Why on Earth should they be on the server? If you want a keep a...

Tanj@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:26:00 -0600

Why on Earth should they be on the server?  If you want a keep a record, ask
your client to keep a record that you can control.  If they are on the server,
they could be broken into, subponeaed, lost, and they take up space.

(Egregious/19217) ISTR security concerns with storing them on the server.

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:19:00 -0600

ISTR security concerns with storing them on the server.

(The After Party/19216) x-messages

The After Party@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 07:10:00 -0600

x-messages

  Should be stored on the server.
  If stored on the client, and there's a 'conflict', it would be trivial
  for one of the parties to alter the captured x-messages to their advantage.
  Stored on the server, there is no chance of this (other than programmers
  or someone with root making changes).

(Smoke Eater/19215) I'm of two minds on the subject...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 06:57:00 -0600

I'm of two minds on the subject...

On the one hand, the more features a server has, the less need for a client.

On the other hand, why should someone's personal communications be stored in a
back-end database where they have no idea who can or cannot access them?

(Turanga Leela/19214) The server should do it. Why should we still rely on a client?

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 06:56:00 -0600

The server should do it. Why should we still rely on a client?

(Smoke Eater/19213) Moving a discussion here....

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 05:52:00 -0600

Moving a discussion here....

It's been discussed, while ISCA, Inc. is voting on officialy saying "we're
moving to Gestalt" that Gestalt doesn't save x-messages.

the part of the discussion being moved here is whether saving x-messages should
be a job for the client or the server.

I initially disagreed with Tanj that the client should do it...  I thought the
server should, but I've now thought of a couple of reasons why it could be
better if the client did it.

Tanj, I still want to hear *your* reasons why it should be the job of the
client, not the server.

(Turanga Leela/19212) ISCA is now voting on the roadmap for ISCABBS. We have a voting ...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:33:00 -0600

ISCA is now voting on the roadmap for ISCABBS. We have a voting window of two
weeks due to the holidays, but I think the future is clear since we are all
sick to death of the stagnation, and the vote is simply a matter of adhering to
our corporate bylaws.

Of course, if we vote to continue waiting on Tiberius, the date for the cutover
to Linux is anyone's guess.

(Turanga Leela/19211) I have not logged into Gestalt in probably ten years. I'll Mail ...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 16:24:00 -0600

I have not logged into Gestalt in probably ten years. I'll Mail Tanj later to
see if he can track down my account info.  My username was not Turanga Leela at
the time.

(Lochner/19210) Bear in mind that the behavior of Tanj's Gestalt is not necessar...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:35:00 -0600


Bear in mind that the behavior of Tanj's Gestalt is not necessarily the same as
the ISCA Gestalt.  Tanj's Gestalt connects to other BBS's, too, including
InaraBBS.  The ISCA Gestalt will most likely not do that, it's being primarily
contemplates as a replacement for DOC to preserve the command-line interface.

That command-line interface *is* what this is all about.  If all we wanted to
do is move to the web, we'd just set up an open source BBS web site and be done
with it, that'd take us all of 15 minutes to do.

(Fafaf/19209) Sorry, meant to add this:

Fafaf@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:27:00 -0600

Sorry, meant to add this:
 
User to profile? (Smoke Eater) -> Turanga Leela
There is no user Turanga Leela on this BBS.

(Fafaf/19208) No, I think that is your gestalt profile. Your ISCA profile migh...

Fafaf@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:26:00 -0600

No, I think that is your gestalt profile. Your ISCA profile might be blank, 
but
you may not have logged in and changed the gestalt one. If you <p>rofile
someone on ISCA who is not on gestalt, you will get an unknown user error.

(Smoke Eater/19207) Apparently, Gestalt caches profiles. My profile's been blank fo...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:24:00 -0600

Apparently, Gestalt caches profiles.  My profile's been blank for quite some
time now.

(Lochner/19206) I am logged into Gestalt right now, and I posting this message u...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 09:10:00 -0600

 
I am logged into Gestalt right now, and I posting this message using the 
Gestalt command-line interface.  It looks just like DOC and mostly acts just 
like DOC.  This is what I see connecting with Roady & Dox's client:

Attempting to connect....

Roady & Dox's BBS Client - BBS Protocol v1.5

[Attempting standard connect...]
[Connected]
Gestalt(tm) Messaging System, version 0.0

gestalt: \ge-'s(h)ta:lt : a structure, configuration, or pattern so integrated
as to constitute a functional unit with properties not derivable by summation
of its parts. 

Please log in with your Gestalt account.  Your ISCABBS name and password
work here.

There is no guest account.  

Name: lochner
Password: 

Benjamin J. Siders logged in.

Are you on an ANSI terminal? (Y/N) -> Yes

Lobby> 
Lobby> 
There are 32 users

 Capa                                2:45 ISCABBS
 Archmage                            2:08 ISCABBS
 Downward Spiral                     1:54 ISCABBS
 River                               1:49 ISCABBS
 Knightshade                         1:41 ISCABBS
 WORF                                1:23 ISCABBS
 Banshee                             1:21 ISCABBS
 Angel Princess                      1:18 ISCABBS
 Arkansas Don                        1:03 ISCABBS
 Copper Lethe                        1:00 ISCABBS
 Stilgar                             0:54 ISCABBS
 Xenos                               0:50 ISCABBS
 Snuffy                              0:49 ISCABBS
 Faunus                              0:43 ISCABBS
 KAM                                 0:39 ISCABBS
 Mama K                              0:35 ISCABBS
 Kena                                0:28 ISCABBS
 Smoke Eater                         0:28 ISCABBS
 Jack Aubrey                         0:20 ISCABBS
 Dr Johnny Fever                     0:15 ISCABBS
 Angus Young                         0:13 ISCABBS
 Gwynn                               0:12 ISCABBS
 Mr Tinkertrain                      0:11 ISCABBS
 The After Party                     0:10 ISCABBS
 Wonderwall                          0:10 ISCABBS
 Ebauchon                            0:08 ISCABBS
 The Islander                        0:06 ISCABBS
 IndianFan                           0:02 ISCABBS
 Lochner                             0:00 ISCABBS
 Bamboo                             23:11 Gestalt
 Fafaf                               5:00 Gestalt
 Lochner                             0:00 Gestalt

Lobby> Profile user

User to profile? -> Smoke Eater

Smoke Eater
Last on: Dec 27, 2011 08:52 until 08:52

   Boo-ja, motherfucker.

Lobby> 
Lobby> Jump to forum name/number? -> Coding

Coding ISCABBS> 
Coding ISCABBS> Jump to forum name/number? -> Future

Future Of ISCA BBS> Enter message
 
 
 
   And then you saw this message.

(Danix/19205) Ooooh, let's party like it's 1998!!!

Danix@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 08:28:00 -0600

Ooooh, let's party like it's 1998!!!

(Lochner/19204) "Dec 27, 2011 12:06 from Smoke Eater

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:55:00 -0600


"Dec 27, 2011 12:06 from Smoke Eater
So if I wanted to develop a non-web client I could use racoon to talk to the
raccoon server?"

  See "Coding ISCABBS" I'll respond there.

"So... we really *ARE* moving to Gestalt now? (unless Tiberius sends us his
version of the Linux port)"

  Yes.

  Even if Tiberius sends the Linux port, which, according to Ben's First Law of
  Organizational Dynamics, will happen only after we invest enough capital in
  Gestalt such that the opportunity of switching back to DOC causes decisional
  paralysis. :)

"I'd have a slight concern about ditching client support."

  You can log into ISCABBS via Gestalt now and check out your client.
  I tried it with Roady & Dox and it looks ok, had some problems with
  the ANSI settings but I didn't play around with it much.

"There's quite a few people who still use the old BBS clients (especially Roady
& Dox)"

  See above, I'm one of them.

(The After Party/19203) KAM

The After Party@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:28:00 -0600

KAM

  I think CL is saying, you can point R&D's client at gestalt and it will work
  fine. I think. Been forever since I've used it.

(Copper Lethe/19202) No one has said anything about ditching the client.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:19:00 -0600


No one has said anything about ditching the client.

Unless we run in to some serious development problems (TL accurately described
the current problems that we've been having, which I haven't really discussed
publically because I didn't want to appear to be whining about it), I don't see
why we shouldn't have this thing moved in 6 months.

(Smoke Eater/19201) Not 'unless', 'whether or not'. We're keeping both paths as via...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:18:00 -0600

Not 'unless', 'whether or not'.  We're keeping both paths as viable options.
Just going on the Gestalt path now allows ISCA to move off the HP-UX box.  That
in and of itself is a necessary action....

(KAM/19200) So... we really ARE moving to Gestalt now? (unless Tiberius se...

KAM@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:10:00 -0600


So... we really *ARE* moving to Gestalt now? (unless Tiberius sends us his
version of the Linux port)

I have no objections with Gestalt. Heck, 10 years ago it was very much as close
to DOC on the outside as anybody could hope for.

I'd have a slight concern about ditching client support. There's quite a few
people who still use the old BBS clients (especially Roady & Dox), and as we
march forward onto time there are going to be more and more Vista and Windows 7
users who do not have telnet enbled by default, and may find it too difficult
to enable it or install it.

(Smoke Eater/19199) So if I wanted to develop a non-web client I could use racoon to...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 07:06:00 -0600

So if I wanted to develop a non-web client I could use racoon to talk to the
raccoon server?

(Lochner/19198) Right, raccdoc speaks raccoon and allows access to the underlyin...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 06:31:00 -0600


Right, raccdoc speaks raccoon and allows access to the underlying DOC data
files.

In the New World, a raccoon server speaks raccoon and allows access to the
underlying data in whatever format Gestalt stores them.

From the point of view of somebody developing raccoon-compliant BBS extensions,
it's immaterial which server responds, or how it gets the data, all we need to
know is that we speak raccoon to a raccoon server on bbs.iscabbs.com and it
feeds us data.

(Tanj/19197) We can't move raccdoc off of whip and onto Linux until/unless DO...

Tanj@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 06:11:00 -0600

We can't move raccdoc off of whip and onto Linux until/unless DOC is migrated
from whip to Linux.  If you aren't using DOC, it's just raccoon, not
doc-speaking-raccoon (raccdoc).

(Turanga Leela/19196) Also, Gestalt can eliminate the need for a BBS client if we deci...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 06:03:00 -0600

Also, Gestalt can eliminate the need for a BBS client if we decide to add
friend/enemy list functionality and a lot of other client-centric goodies to
the interface, and a web interface should be really easy to implement as well.

(Lochner/19195) Leela's summary is pretty spot on. For what it's worth, Tanj's ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 05:55:00 -0600


Leela's summary is pretty spot on.  For what it's worth, Tanj's position on
licensing Gestalt has never really changed, he's always held this offer out,
and adding Gestalt as an access platform for ISCA has been the plan for seven
years now.

The only thing that's really changing in the official plan is that instead of
staying on HPUX and having Gestalt talk to the raccdoc server, we're migrating
the data off HPUX and unto Linux, and runnning the raccdoc server there.

If we ever got a DOC port to Linux working, we can have it talk to raccdoc, or
do the underlying database, or whatever, as well.

The only features of the BBS that require this porting before they can be fixed
are issues with the core BBS process -- this interface.

We don't need to complete the port to extend the BBS's functionality, and the
web interface to ISCA is proceeding.

(Turanga Leela/19194) To be blunt, the whole reason nothing has happened since the for...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:24:00 -0600

To be blunt, the whole reason nothing has happened since the formation of ISCA,
Inc. is that Tiberius can't (read: won't) make five minutes to tar /src/bbs and
email the tarball to us.

The programmers have been waiting all this time for the source, because a few
major bugs in the port are supposedly resolved already in the build Tiberius
has, and keeps promising to make time "sometime next week" but it never seems
to happen, and we have been naively taking his word for it. The last response
was that he would get to it when things settle down. I don't know about you,
but life never settles down for me while running a business. I am always far
too busy, so to make time to do the things I want to do outside of work, I need
to /make/ the time and put off work stuff. I don't see why he can't tar cvf
bbs.tar /src/bbs (and if he could spend one minute longer, bzip it) even during
lunch hour sometime, but whatever.

Gestalt works, Tanj has graciously extended his offer again to license it to
us, source and all, and already has tools to migrate user accounts to Gestalt,
so that is why we are going to move to Gestalt (in 1998 ;)). It is
disappointing that the BBS won't be on DOC any more, but it will be tweaked to
be as DOC-like as possible, except with a bunch of new features added, and many
annoyances (such as the delays in account creation) will not be present. That
does not mean the Linux port is dead - it just is not the ultimate migration
path for us any longer. We would still like to port it to a stable Linux build,
and make it accessible from Gestalt, but if that happens it will be purely for
nostalgia. Gestalt is now our migration path (again!).

Lochner has been the catalyst in this - every so often we would ping Tiberius,
and based on his answer we would decide to take his word for it and wait. Well,
Lochner has taken the approach of pursuing Tiberius more aggressively and it
has become clear that we'll be waiting until the cows come home before he can
^H^H^Hwill make the time to tar and send the source. When we came to a
consensus Gestalt was brought up (I don't recall who suggested it as a viable
solution) and it didn't take too long to decide to move forward with it. Now,
it is not official yet mind you; we are holding a vote on it tonight but the
discussion seems to indicate that the vote is a mere formality to comply with
our bylaws. (I don't think I'm overstepping any boundaries discussing the move
to Gestalt and where the BBS future lies at the moment).

Now, you might ask: why a VPS? Honestly, it comes down to cost vs. reliability.
Many of us own businesses and could easily host it and some of us have offered
to, but there is the situation that we are all spread out, and if one of us
were to host it, and to borrow a cliche, "get hit by a bus" tomorrow, what
would happen to the BBS? That led to the decision to use a hosted solution.
Obviously, shared hosting is not a viable solution to us, and colocation is
expensive. Virtualization has come so far in the last few years that it not
only is the most economical solution that is practical for us, it is in some
aspects more reliable* than a physical box.

*Depending on the VPS platform, a VM can be rapidly migrated to new hardware
should the need arise, and backups/snapshots are stupid-easy especially if
you're running on an LVM-aware VM platform

(Lochner/19193) If you look at the forum nfo this room, you will see the offi...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 04:24:00 -0600

If you look at the forum <i>nfo this room, you will see the officially
sanctioned ISCA roadmap.

You will note that nowhere in there are there plans to migrate off HPUX to
Linux. That was/is an additional project to deal with the problem that HPUX is
a dead platform and the hardware is aging and when it fails, getting
replacement parts/boxes may be difficult or impossible.

ISCA is currently voting on a motion to adopt a new roadmap that does involve
migrating off to Linux, and that new roadmap does not involve the Linux port
that Tiberius was working on. If Tiberius finds the time and willingness to
send a copy of the code, we will accept it and thank him for his work, and we
will integrate that Linux version of DOC into the roadmap.

However, ISCA is moving on, with or without the Linux port of DOC. No official
timeline has been set yet, but I've suggested that the new roadmap could be
completed within six months given a steady hand at the wheel, and some ISCA
members feel it could be even shorter than that.

In the meantime, other ISCA projects continue, including the new ISCA web
interface, which will have features not found in the command-line version, like
threads, replies, longer post history, BBS-wide searching, user avatars,
signatures, and so forth. That project is currently being discussed in
Coding ISCABBS>.

(Lochner/19190) "WHEN does the BBS plan a move to Linux, if at all, and will tha...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 02:44:00 -0600

"WHEN does the BBS plan a move to Linux, if at all, and will that indeed do
away with the infamous boot-off?"

Unofficially: July 1, 2012 is the deadline move to Linux.

It may become official within a few weeks, ISCA is currently voting
on some matters.

The auto boot-off, I'm not sure when that'll go away, but July 1, 2012
is the soonest.

(Knightshade/19189) Note that such moves have been under discussion since the mid-19...

Knightshade@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 02:28:00 -0600

Note that such moves have been under discussion since the mid-1990s (seriously)
so don't expect anything too quickly :P

(Smoke Eater/19188) It's in the works, and yes it will do away with the infamous boo...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Dec 2011 01:18:00 -0600

It's in the works, and yes it will do away with the infamous boot-off.

There are people working on moving us to Gestalt, and people working on the DOC
port to Linux. ISCA, Inc. is getting a project plan together and moving
forward.

(Jefferson Davis/19187) I've heard that the BBS plans to move to Linux and that this mov...

Jefferson Davis@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 26 Dec 2011 19:51:00 -0600

I've heard that the BBS plans to move to Linux and that this move would do away
with the annoying practice of booting someone off automatically after 10
minutes of inactivity. Despite my "official" number of logins, that is
deceptive. I was away for more than four months about a year and a half ago and
the BBS booted my account, bespite my having nearly 7000 logins dating to
1996-so yes, I've been around ISCA BBS for over 15 years.

I understand that the boot-off served a very legitimate purpose back in the
day-I remember when there were so many people here, it wasn't uncommon to wait
over five minutes in the queue.

WHEN does the BBS plan a move to Linux, if at all, and will that indeed do away
with the infamous boot-off?

(Ace High/19186) huh?

Ace High@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 16:32:00 -0600

huh?

(Nohirsute/19185) THEBLKARCHER may be a "returnee" under a new name? Already no l...

Nohirsute@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 16:09:00 -0600

THEBLKARCHER may be a "returnee" under a new name? Already no longer a newbie.
I know in any of my online profiles, I "cite" http://iscabbs.com and
telnet://bbs.iscabbs.com (tho likely few people's computers have telnet enabled
or browser set to activate it from browser)

(Egregious/19184) There are our recent users. Unfortunately I'm not keeping as cl...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 09:33:00 -0600

There are our recent users. Unfortunately I'm not keeping as close
track of their creation date as I used to.

Euphoric Nightmare
Sho
THEBLKARCHER

(The After Party/19183) User Spike

The After Party@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 29 Nov 2011 08:58:00 -0600

User Spike

Did we see any extra traffic when this hit:

http://www.engadget.com/2011/11/23/growing-up-geek-chris-pirillo/

Chris, aka "The Locker Gnome" mentioned ISCA BBS on engadget, though
no link so the lazy peeps might not have bothered to google for it...

(Danix/19182) Hm, that would be interesting!

Danix@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 07:19:00 -0500

Hm, that would be interesting!

"I said, no Xes to (user) for you, asswipe!

(Rainmaker/19181) I think you should be able to customize the message that x-disab...

Rainmaker@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 07:10:00 -0500

I think you should be able to customize the message that x-disabled people
receive after they try and x you again!

(Danix/19180) Yup, that was my first thought as well; the BBS itself has X-dis...

Danix@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 07:00:00 -0500

Yup, that was my first thought as well; the BBS itself has X-disabling and
Mail-disabling. Note that it will also inform the blocked person that you've
specifically blocked him (Sorry, this person is not accepting X messages from
you!"

(Banshee/19179) Woah. And here I've been using c-c-e like a sucker (IO ERROR's ...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:45:00 -0500

Woah. And here I've been using c-c-e like a sucker (IO ERROR's client).

Thanks!

(Mama K/19178) IIRC, using the X disable list is bbs-side, not a function of th...

Mama K@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:40:00 -0500

IIRC, using the X disable list is bbs-side, not a function of the client. And
it prevents X's and Mail. c, x, u, and follow the prompts.

(Banshee/19177) A BBS client's "Enemies List" is purely client-side, correct? T...

Banshee@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 27 Oct 2011 05:39:00 -0500

A BBS client's "Enemies List" is purely client-side, correct? There's no flag
set on the BBS or anything, right? I know the client serves well to block Xs,
and I believe it auto-responds to the user in question that they are being
blocked when they attempt to X, but now I've got someone on my enemy list who
has Mailed me, and I started thinking what the best way to deal with that
would be.

While the client will kill the message for me easily enough, but it is still a
bit annoying that it is there at all, you know? Not to mention that it
presents the very real possibility for a user you've blocked to basically empty
your Mail> queue by spamming it with 150 messages (or whatever the limit is).

So I'm thinking, wouldn't it be nice if the BBS actually had some type of
"blocked communication" flag where the system, itself, could prevent X's and
Mail (per user by user) instead of offloading that to the client? Not knowing
the internal BBS communication logic, is that even remotely possible?

(AndyB/19176) Oh good. I knew I had thought about it, just couldn't remember ...

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Sep 2011 09:59:00 -0500

Oh good. I knew I had thought about it, just couldn't remember whether I'd
actually done it.

(Rian/19175) It does, in fact:

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:34:00 -0500

It does, in fact:

Login as 'Guest' to just look around, or 'New' to create a new account.

Name: New

Welcome, or welcome back, to ISCABBS! Thanks for joining us.

If you are interested in just looking around, feel free to just login as a
Guest user and check us out. You can then create a new account at a later time
if you are still so inclined.

If you already have an account here, but have forgotten the password, please
hit <n> at the next prompt, login as Guest, and hit <y> for further guidance.

If you already have an account here, but want a new user handle, please hit <n>
at the next prompt, login under your old username, and hit <y> for further
guidance.
---
<Then a y/n prompt to create a new account, and "no" checks out to the name
prompt again>

(AndyB/19174) The blurb when you login as New might even tell you to disconnec...

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 13:17:00 -0500

The blurb when you login as New might even tell you to disconnect and login as
Guest if you've just forgotten your password. I can't remember any more.

(DrMemory/19173) Copper Lethe.

DrMemory@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Sep 2011 09:26:00 -0500

Copper Lethe.

Are there problems?

(Lunenburg/19172) Who's running the new iscabbs.com DNS these days?

Lunenburg@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Sep 2011 10:56:00 -0500

Who's running the new iscabbs.com DNS these days?

(Guardian Angel/19171) That just happens to be what I did :)

Guardian Angel@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 27 Sep 2011 03:57:00 -0500

That just happens to be what I did :)

(AndyB/19170) Apologies - wouldn't you know, I wrote the flippin' helpfile - y...

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 23 Sep 2011 05:49:00 -0500

Apologies - wouldn't you know, I wrote the flippin' helpfile - you login as
Guest and Yell.

(Guardian Angel/19169) Having forgotten mine in my recent move and Yelling for a reset,...

Guardian Angel@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 22 Sep 2011 11:57:00 -0500

Having forgotten mine in my recent move and Yelling for a reset, I'd have to
concur with that - I had no idea I could just email in for my PW to be reset :(

(AndyB/19168) Excellent idea. I don't think it's very well known that you jus...

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 22:43:00 -0500

Excellent idea. I don't think it's very well known that you just e-mail in for
password resets at the moment.

(Turanga Leela/19167) Also, a password reset feature would be good.

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 21 Sep 2011 10:20:00 -0500

Also, a password reset feature would be good.
It can accompany "Hi, {username} your ISCABBS account is about to time out. Why
not come back and visit, and if you don't remember your password, click {link}
to reset your password."

(AndyB/19166) At the risk of repeating myself yet again, I never thought for o...

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Sep 2011 13:33:00 -0500

At the risk of repeating myself yet again, I never thought for one minute that
it would be anything other than an OPTION, and therefore toggleable. Default
on for new users, maybe, default off for existing.

(Lammam P Yrruf/19165) I have facebook and livejournal send me those emails. I'm rathe...

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 18 Sep 2011 11:27:00 -0500

I have facebook and livejournal send me those emails. I'm rather glad of it,
or I wouldn't ever know someone from livejournal was trying to contact me.

(Lochner/19164) I think it should be a given that these features are toggle-able...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 19:02:00 -0500

I think it should be a given that these features are toggle-able.
That's beginner.

(Rian/19163) In theory, yes. In practice? I suspect not so much. If it's n...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:17:00 -0500

In theory, yes. In practice? I suspect not so much. If it's not toggle-able,
it's going to annoy the people that don't want or need it, and if it is, and
people turn it off, then those alerts won't get through either. I don't have
any legitimate guess as to the percentages of people that would turn it off,
but I do know that I, for one, turn off those "automatic update" emails the
first chance I get, from pretty much everywhere. If any significant number are
the same way...?

(Copper Lethe/19162) Actually, I think it's a pretty good idea.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 17 Sep 2011 18:04:00 -0500

Actually, I think it's a pretty good idea.

It's got me thinking about a couple things. First, an email alert when you
have Mail> might get people who generally don't log in a lot checking in more
than they might otherwise. It could also help with user retention. It would
be pretty easy to send the user a message reminding them that their account is
going to time out soon, which would then generate an email alert.

(AndyB/19161) That's why I said an option ;) Read the suggestion, folks ;)

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Sep 2011 23:51:00 -0500

That's why I said an option ;) Read the suggestion, folks ;)

(Turanga Leela/19160) Rainmaker, if you spend less time trolling, perhaps you won't ge...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Sep 2011 04:37:00 -0500

Rainmaker, if you spend less time trolling, perhaps you won't get so mamy
deletion notices?

Okay, so make it an optional feature, enabled by default.

(JuggernautXL/19158) If I got email from ISCA, I'd be like, lemme do dishes first.. h...

JuggernautXL@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:54:00 -0500

If I got email from ISCA, I'd be like, lemme do dishes first.. haha. jk... but
srsly, irl first then bbs isca!!!! wtf!!! how dare you email me isca!!! so
evil!!

(Ace High/19157) all joking aside, this sort of feature is a pretty low priority ...

Ace High@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 17:26:00 -0500

all joking aside, this sort of feature is a pretty low priority to me. i don't
get a ton of mail> on here, and i rarely feel any of it is important enough
that i'd need to be notified off of here. then again, i feel the same about
facebook messaging.

(Lammam P Yrruf/19156) Same idea. Time for a deathmatch?

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 17:26:00 -0500

Same idea. Time for a deathmatch?

(Ace High/19155) Bad idea, Ozzy!

Ace High@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 17:26:00 -0500

Bad idea, Ozzy!

(Lammam P Yrruf/19154) Good idea, Green!

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 15:34:00 -0500

Good idea, Green!

(Green/19153) So make AndyB's suggestion with the ability to turn in on or off...

Green@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:21:00 -0500

So make AndyB's suggestion with the ability to turn in on or off.

(Ozzy/19152) So make it toggleable.

Ozzy@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:21:00 -0500

So make it toggleable.

(Rainmaker/19151) I respectfully disagree with adding that feature. I like the fe...

Rainmaker@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:11:00 -0500

I respectfully disagree with adding that feature. I like the feeling of
hitting the lotto when I log in and see a Mail> message waiting for me.
Especially when I've had a ton of posts that day in various Fora and wondering
which FM is sending me a deletion notice/ warning.

(AndyB/19150) Just had an idea float across my mind.

AndyB@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Sep 2011 12:09:00 -0500

Just had an idea float across my mind.

What about an option to generate an e-mail to your registered address when a
Mail> message is sent to you?

(Tiberius/19149) Back in April, people were... discussing... the Daylight Saving ...

Tiberius@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 29 Jul 2011 16:55:00 -0500

Back in April, people were... discussing... the Daylight Saving Time issue.
For the record, it's not an HP-UX bug or any of the other causes people were
attributing to it. I actually posted about it the first year it was an issue.
It's not a bug per se, but hardcoded time rules in local versions of the time
functions (part of Serendipity's performance tweaks to get 1000 concurrent
users on the box). That code was just never updated for the new DST rules; it
wasn't important enough to bother decyphering the state table to fix it. It
won't be an issue on the Linux port because that optimized replacement code
won't be used on Linux.

(Copper Lethe/19148) No, I'm working on a different phase of testing right now.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Jul 2011 04:46:00 -0500

No, I'm working on a different phase of testing right now.
I'm trying to get the BBS to run in queue mode, which means it answers on port
23 (or at least port 23 is forwarded to an answering port). Right now that
isn't working, thus the refused connection.

(Nohirsute/19147) putty test.iscabbs.com got ME a "putty error : unable to open c...

Nohirsute@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Jul 2011 19:48:00 -0500

putty test.iscabbs.com got ME a "putty error : unable to open connection --
connection refused."
Perhaps caus it's now JULY and that was a JUNE test?

(JuggernautXL/19146) Totally spammed that test bbs up!!! oh yeah!!!

JuggernautXL@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:10:00 -0500

Totally spammed that test bbs up!!! oh yeah!!!

(DesCartes/19145) It can sense your wheelchair.

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Jun 2011 19:07:00 -0500

It can sense your wheelchair.

(Copper Lethe/19143) The last restore I did was on 6/03 at 9:30pm or so.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 12:23:00 -0500

The last restore I did was on 6/03 at 9:30pm or so.

(Egregious/19142) Are we frequently restoring from that 4/20 dump? My posts seem ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 06 Jun 2011 12:07:00 -0500

Are we frequently restoring from that 4/20 dump? My posts seem to
be disappearing.

(Copper Lethe/19141) It's back now.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:57:00 -0500

It's back now.

(Copper Lethe/19140) I'm doing a little testing myself at the moment, which requires ...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 10:04:00 -0500

I'm doing a little testing myself at the moment, which requires that the bbs
user has a real shell.

It'll be back in a few minutes.

(Turanga Leela/19139) Suggestion: consider adding the test bbs hostname to the forum i...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:20:00 -0500

Suggestion: consider adding the test bbs hostname to the forum info here.

(Egregious/19138) Weird, I get this:

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:13:00 -0500

Weird, I get this:

login: bbs
Password:
Login incorrect

(Miser/19137) No. I just entered "bbs" and then got another login prompt wher...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:11:00 -0500

No. I just entered "bbs" and then got another login prompt where regular
login/password go.

(Egregious/19136) Does "bbs" have a password?

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 03 Jun 2011 09:10:00 -0500

Does "bbs" have a password?

(Arkansas Don/19135) Miser, Devil Lady assigned me a temp password which I changed so...

Arkansas Don@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Jun 2011 10:11:00 -0500

Miser, Devil Lady assigned me a temp password which I changed so it won't be in
the Mail>. I'll try to enter it again.

(Miser/19134) Don>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Jun 2011 10:06:00 -0500

Don>
When did you last change your password? I remember you had to change it
recently, but I thought that was before 4/20. If you still have it in an email
from a sysop, might check it there and try again.

(Arkansas Don/19133) Was able to connect to it via telnet. Would not take my passwor...

Arkansas Don@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 02 Jun 2011 10:04:00 -0500

Was able to connect to it via telnet. Would not take my password. It gave me
4 chances then I got disconnected. I'll have to make sure what my password is
next time.