LesBiGayTrans Issues

(Gespalder/173115) Chicago Archbishop Cardinal Francis George just apologized for c...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 07 Jan 2012 15:52:00 -0600

Chicago Archbishop Cardinal Francis George just apologized for comparing the
LGBT community to the Ku Klux Klan.

"I am truly sorry for the hurt my remarks have caused," George said in an
interview with the Chicago Tribune. "Particularly because we all have friends
or family members who are gay and lesbian. This has evidently wounded a good
number of people.  I  have family members myself who are gay and lesbian, so
it's part of our lives. So I'm sorry for the hurt. When I was talking I was
speaking out of fear that I have for the church's liberty and I was reaching
for an analogy which was very inappropriate for which I'm sorry. I didn't
realize the impact of what I was saying...Sometimes fear is a bad motivation."

While we called for Cardinal George's resignation, we think remorse is a
positive step in the right direction. It is gratifying to see the Cardinal take
personal responsibility for the hurt he has caused and we hope this incident
leads to improving relations with the LGBT community.

Truth Wins Out would like to thank our readers for signing our petition (5,400
people signed) that called on Cardinal George to resign. We are also grateful
to those who contributed financially to help us place a full-page ad in last
Sunday's Chicago Tribune headlined, "Hey, Cardinal Francis George, Gay is not
like the KKK." This ad played a critical role because it kept the controversy
-- thus the public pressure -- alive during the holidays.

When we work together, we can create lasting change and achieve real progress.

Thank You,

Wayne Besen
Founder, Truth Wins Out

(Bo Peep/173114) This again?

Bo Peep@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 01 Jan 2012 03:06:00 -0600

This again?
1. Does this even belong here?
2. You all fell into BD's trap again
3. s/he tried the same thing ina couple of other forum they just walked around
4. dead horse.

(Lochner/173113) We've ranged far enough afield of "LesBiGay" to move this or dro...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:54:00 -0600

We've ranged far enough afield of "LesBiGay" to move this or drop it.
I'll respond in Serious>.

(Bodhi Dharma/173112) Lochner> This semantics argument started with Pecc's msg #173096...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:50:00 -0600

Lochner> This semantics argument started with Pecc's msg #173096.  The part of
the semantics argument that was between you and I started with your message
#173103.
As is usual, I didn't start this semantics argument.
And I'm not going to later claim that correlation indicates causation, Mr
Wizard.  Everyone here has had at least a beginner course in the scientific
method.  We all know that correlation doesn't prove causation.  It doesn't
make you look smart to point out with a "I'm smarter than you!" complex that
the sky is blue.

(Lochner/173110) I'll also point out that you're the one and only user with whom ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:42:00 -0600

I'll also point out that you're the one and only user with whom that I
continually get locked into these semantic battles, and my observation of your
posting with other users is that other users frequently get locked into
semantic battles with you.

The consistent element here is you.

(Lochner/173109) "In other words, "if there's causation, there's usually correlat...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:40:00 -0600


"In other words, "if there's causation, there's usually correlation" is closer
to what I'm saying."

  Then I agree.  But what it'll happen is that you'll later make an argument
  that is only valid if correlation implies causation, and when I point this
  out, you'll refer back to this argument and claim that I already agreed
  with you that it does.

"And now I remember why I hate ISCABBS.  Its because you all would rather have
semantics arguments or focus on posters than focus on the subject."

  Which subject have you brought up that I refused to engage?  I tried
  twice to bring us back to your original point - about double standards -
  and you ignored those overtures in favor of this discussion.

  So, you know.  Shut up.

(Bodhi Dharma/173108) Lochner> When I say that "which is to mean that" it indictes tha...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:30:00 -0600

Lochner> When I say that "which is to mean that" it indictes that the second
part of that sentence is intended to clarify exactly what I mean.  In other
words, "if there's causation, there's usually correlation" is closer to what
I'm saying.
And now I remember why I hate ISCABBS.  Its because you all would rather have
semantics arguments or focus on posters than focus on the subject.

(Lochner/173107) You are arguing that these two statements mean the same thing:

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 30 Dec 2011 02:27:00 -0600


  You are arguing that these two statements mean the same thing:


      "Causation pretty much goes with correlation".
      "If there is causation, there's usually correlation."

  They do not.

(Ace High/173106) in other news, BD, what are you even talking about this point? t...

Ace High@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 21:37:00 -0600

in other news, BD, what are you even talking about this point? to the
surprise of absolutely no one, you've reduced this entire thread to such
a brutal degree of semantics that whatever you were trying to say has
been completely eclipsed. it's almost like...like it's 2006 again!

(Ace High/173105) you guys are all idiots. "bitches ain't shit" was on dr. dre's a...

Ace High@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 21:36:00 -0600

you guys are all idiots. "bitches ain't shit" was on dr. dre's album the
chronic.

(Bodhi Dharma/173104) I wish you'd brush up on your ability to focus on the subject an...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:30:00 -0600

I wish you'd brush up on your ability to focus on the subject and not focus on
the poster.
What I said is "Causation pretty much goes with correlation".  That's like
saying that opposable thumbs pretty much go with humans.  I said that if there
is causation, there's usually correlation.  Likewise, if there are humans,
there's usually opposable thumbs.

(Lochner/173103) No. You said:

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:12:00 -0600


No.  You said:

   correlation --> causation

That's false.

Now you say

   causation --> correlation

I agree with the latter.

I wish that when you took these really long breaks from ISCA, you'd brush up
more on your writing skills.  I can see that we're destined for more 600-post
threads full of onanistic wrangling over the meaning of words, meanings which
everybody but you seems to plainly grasp without requiring the kind of
explanation I provide to my 3 year old.

I'd find these exchanges less vexing if you weren't engaged in them for the
purpose of a rhetorical lay-up that doesn't really mean much.

I'll invite you again to tell me what your point is.

That there are double standards in acceptable speech on mass media?

   I agree 100%.

(Bodhi Dharma/173102) So, Lochner, you disagree that if there is causation, there's us...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:08:00 -0600

So, Lochner, you disagree that if there is causation, there's usually
correlation?

(Lochner/173101) "None of what you said in your last post indicates that "clearly...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 19:02:00 -0600


"None of what you said in your last post indicates that "clearly derogatory" is
simple."

  It is simple.  A statement is not inherently derragotory or note.

  Whether it's derrogatory is a function of the listener's perception.

  The speaker's apparent intent is a factor that may influences the listener's
  perception.

  It's derrogatory if the listener thinks it is.
  It's clearly derrogatory if most listeners think it is.

  If you don't mind, can you tell me what your larger point is.  In typical
  Bodhi Dharma fashion, you've not only lost the forest while copping a feel
  of the trees, you're enggaed in a microscoping examination of the leaf
  pigmentation.

  Is there a "double standard" out there in what is tolerable speech?

  Of course there is, because our standards are not rational.

  If that's your point, I agree.

  Regardless, Don Imus's comments were clearly derrogatory.

  You're wrong.

"Causation pretty much goes with correlation"

  This is false.  You are wrong.

(Bodhi Dharma/173100) Causation pretty much goes with correlation (which is to say tha...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:32:00 -0600

Causation pretty much goes with correlation (which is to say that if there is
causation, there's usually correlation, but not that if there is correlation,
there must be causation).
So, if the misogynistic attitudes are correlated with misogynistic
entertainment, if negative views held by a person are correlated with negative
views in the entertainment that person absorbs, then there may be causation
and, if there is causation, then negative views in entertainment are something
to be avoided.

(Bodhi Dharma/173099) "I'm out"

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:31:00 -0600

"I'm out"
for which I'm thankful.

(Peccavimus/173098) "If those studies are acurate [sic], it raises the question of w...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:29:00 -0600

"If those studies are acurate [sic], it raises the question of what happens
when people watch entertainment that has a negative portrayal of LGBTQ people."

If that doesn't imply that watching such entertainments will have an effect on
those who watch it . . . well.  Implication is impossible because it's
complicated or something, so I guess . . . whatever you like.

I'm out.

(Bodhi Dharma/173097) What I said is "..are more likely to..". There's no simpler way...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:27:00 -0600

What I said is "..are more likely to..".  There's no simpler way to say
"there's a correlation".

(Peccavimus/173096) "I didn't say it did" is among the most infuriating thing one ca...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:24:00 -0600

"I didn't say it did" is among the most infuriating thing one can say on ISCA,
I believe, especially after one clearly implied it.

Of course, you've already established that implication is too complicated to
exist, so . . . zappity dappity doo, this conversation is already undermining
my ataraxia.

(Bodhi Dharma/173095) Pecc, I didn't claim it did. I don't have it on hand to check, ...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:10:00 -0600

Pecc, I didn't claim it did.  I don't have it on hand to check, but I believe
that Christy Barongan and Gordon C Nayagama's study showed causation.

(Peccavimus/173094) Correlation doesn't imply causation.

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:10:00 -0600

Correlation doesn't imply causation.

(Bodhi Dharma/173093) One thing to note is that there have been studies that indicate ...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 16:07:00 -0600

One thing to note is that there have been studies that indicate that men who
listen to misogynistic rap music are more likely to have misogynistic opinions
towards women.
If those studies are acurate, it raises the question of what happens when
people watch entertainment that has a negative portrayal of LGBTQ people.

(Bodhi Dharma/173092) Lochner> I've been basing my comments in this discussion on theo...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 15:47:00 -0600

Lochner> I've been basing my comments in this discussion on theories of
communication and political science since msg #173076.
None of what you said in your last post indicates that "clearly derogatory" is
simple.  It shows the opposite.  People decide what is "clearly derogatory"
based on the speaker, the message, the environment, and other factors which
interact with each other in very complicated ways.  People have different
opinions of what is "clearly derogatory".  You claim that "reasonable people"
tend to agree with each other.  I think, in praxis, we tend to define
"reasonable people" as "people who agree with us".
And the fact that everything changes over time is pretty significant because it
means that some statement made by some speaker in some environment will move
from being perceived as derogatory to not derogatory to derogatory again.  How
exactly is that that "that's so gay" became a casual statement that most people
didn't think of as derogatory to a statement which more and more people see as
derogatory?  Its not simple.  Its far from simple.  Its pretty damn complex and
has no one right answer.  You claim that rappers aren't thought of as being
serious when they make misogynistic remarks, but how many rappers have had
assault charges brought against them?

(Lochner/173091) "Does "clearly derogatory" mean "the speaker meant it to be offe...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 05:04:00 -0600

"Does "clearly derogatory" mean "the speaker meant it to be offensive" or does
it mean "the majority of people think he meant to be offensive"?"

  You're into theories of language now, and I'm a firm believer in the
  Hayakawa theory of language.  As such, by definition a statement is offensive
  if people who hear it find it offensive.  I'll argue that a statement is
  clearly offensive is the majority of people who hear it are offended.

  Whether the speaker believed or intended it to be offensive has to do with
  our assessment of what kind of person he is and context of its use, I'd
  say, but it's not otherwise pertinent to whether the statement is offensive.

  That said, a person's intent, when clear enough, can render an offensive
  statement inoffensive.  For example, when I walk into a gay friend's
  apartment, look around, and say, "This place is so queer" with a bit
  shiteating grin, even though that statement is offensive, my friends is not
  offended because of the context.  That is, he can infer something from
  context that makes the statement not offensive.

  So, intent bears on whether the listener finds the statement offensive,
  but the question is what a reasonable listener would infer from the
  behavior of the speaker, not what the speaker meant in his heart of hearts.

"How does the speaker know if the majority of people think he meant it to be
offensive until after he says it?  And was a poll taken?"

  He doesn't, necessarily.  That's why people sometimes say things that are
  offensive without intending to offend anybody.

"The fact is that our society is schizophrenic with regards to what is "clearly
derogatory" and what isn't."

  If so, it's because what we perceive as offensive is not based on rationality
  or logic, but primarily on emotional responses to words, which I argue are
  inherently irrational.  When we hear a statement, which is no more than
  mechanical waves hitting our eardrums, those waves are translated into
  auditory information that is processed by the brain, and associated with
  an emotional response.  Base emotional responses, like anger, generally
  originate in lower-levels of brain activity, such as the brain stem, which
  sidesteps all of our rational thought processes.

  It's not a failing with "society" so much as human cognition.

""nappy headed hoes" can end a career, but "Bitches ain't **** but ho's and
tricks, lick on these balls and suck the dick" (snoop dogg) is money making."

  Again, context matters.  Look at how much racially offensive nonsense
  Daniel Tosh offers up on his show each week, yet very few people appear
  to be genuinely offended because of the context -- they know it's all
  tongue-in-cheek.  His show is insanely popular with black viewers
  specifically because he takes cheap shots at black culture in a playful
  manner.

  Yet Bill Cosby takes shots at black culture, and he catches some
  flak for it, because he genuinely intended to be critical.

"Does that make it okay - because the majority of people didn't protest it?"

  Yes, by definition.  If you're talking about what is acceptable as free
  expression, then yes, absolutely, by definition.

"I'm not defending Imus.  I'm saying that the whole "'clearly derogatory' is
simple" claim is bull."

  Well, I disagree.  It's clearly a derrogatory statement.  So is Snoop
  Dogg's statement.  The question is whether it's offensive.

  If I call Steppenwolf an ivory tower intellectual dork, he's not likely
  to take offense.  For one, he knows that I am also an ivory tower
  intellectual dork, and that I mean the chide affectionately.

  But you can imagine a number of other people who, if they made that same
  charge, would be offensive saying the same thing.

  You are basically trying to come up with parsing rule whereby a word
  can be determined to be patently offensive and my opinion is that
  language is not subject to such interpretation.

  Even words like 'cunt' and 'fuck' can be rendered unoffensive in
  context.

(Smoke Eater/173090) On top of that, what Snoop Dogg (or any hip hop artist) says in ...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:13:00 -0600

On top of that, what Snoop Dogg (or any hip hop artist) says in their work is
quite a different story from what a broadcaster says on sports radio.

Those that are offended by Snoop's statements on women have the choice to not
buy his music.  If enough people don't, he doesn't sell, and his record label
drops him.

When a white man, talking about a COLLEGE sports team, makes the 'nappy headed
hos' comment, he's denigrating (pun intended) them as blacks and as women.  Why
do we need to hear that when you're doing color commentary for a basketball
game?

(Miser/173089) If the producers of Snoop Dogg albums were concerned about their...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 04:02:00 -0600

If the producers of Snoop Dogg albums were concerned about their image, they
may have "fired" him too.  It's their prerogative.  Saying "nappy headed hoes"
on national syndicated talk radio is going to have different consequences than
saying it on a local college radio station.  It's protected by free speech, as
in the government cannot jail you for saying it, but it's up to the
broadcaster to determine if they want to continue to air your comments or
lyrics.

(Giraffe/173088) In other words, the fine art of sophistry allows any statement t...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:44:00 -0600

In other words, the fine art of sophistry allows any statement to be parsed
into atoms. Nihilism and asshattery wins!

(Bodhi Dharma/173087) Does "clearly derogatory" mean "the speaker meant it to be offen...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 03:21:00 -0600

Does "clearly derogatory" mean "the speaker meant it to be offensive" or does
it mean "the majority of people think he meant to be offensive"?  How does the
speaker know if the majority of people think he meant it to be offensive until
after he says it?  And was a poll taken?
The fact is that our society is schizophrenic with regards to what is "clearly
derogatory" and what isn't.
"nappy headed hoes" can end a career, but "Bitches ain't **** but ho's and
tricks, lick on these balls and suck the dick" (snoop dogg) is money making.  O
www.youtube.com/watch?v=4JuS5AwR5Xg  I didn't hear nearly as much uproar over
that as I heard about "nappy headed hoes".  Does that make it okay - because
the majority of people didn't protest it?
I'm not defending Imus.  I'm saying that the whole "'clearly derogatory' is
simple" claim is bull.

(Peccavimus/173086) In LesBiGay news, the word blatherskite gives me a semi.

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 18:04:00 -0600

In LesBiGay news, the word blatherskite gives me a semi.

(Lochner/173085) "What I am doing is pointing out the rather unavoidable fact tha...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 17:56:00 -0600

"What I am doing is pointing out the rather unavoidable fact that what
is and what is not a "clearly derogatory racial statement" is a matter of
opinion each person has to make for themselves and for which there is often not
a universal agreement on."

  I agree that reasonable minds can differ as to whether a given statement
  is intended by its author to be racially derrogatory.

  I'm telling you that when a guy refers to a team of mostly black female
  basketball players as "nappy-headed hos," there would be little reasonable
  disagreement as to whether this statement is perceived as racially
  derrogatory.  And I further submit that there would be little reasonable
  disagreement over whether the person making that statement intended to be
  racially derrogatory, or at least made the statement in utter disregard of
  whether it was racially derrogatory.

"In other words, what is a "clearly derogatory statement" (dropping the
"racial" so as to make the discussion on topic for the forum) is unknown and,
at best, simply guessed at."

  Obviously, what a person meant or thought can be never known as a fact.
  Even if the person admits he meant a particular thing, he could be lying.
  It can never be known.

  But it can be reasonably surmised, given the statement, context, subject,
  and history of the speaker, what was meant, and the law routinely makes
  inferences about what people "meant."

  If you put this to 100 different juries, at least 90 of them are going to
  decide he meant to be racially insulting.

  Your hand-waving to the contrary here is hypertechnical blatherskite
  obscuring plain meaning in overwrought rhetorical analysis to draw what
  looks to be a strained comparison.  We are, after all, in LesBiGayTrans
  and are discussing race.

(Giraffe/173084) Go ahead and give us your most charitable interpretation of what...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 17:09:00 -0600

Go ahead and give us your most charitable interpretation of what Don Imus could
have meant, such that his statement was not derogatory.

(Bodhi Dharma/173083) I'm not trying to defend him. I neither know nor care enough a...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:58:00 -0600

I'm not trying to defend him.  I  neither know nor care enough about the man to
do that.  What I am doing is pointing out the rather unavoidable fact that what
is and what is not a "clearly derogatory racial statement" is a matter of
opinion each person has to make for themselves and for which there is often not
a universal agreement on.  In other words, what is a "clearly derogatory
statement" (dropping the "racial" so as to make the discussion on topic for the
forum) is unknown and, at best, simply guessed at.

(Lochner/173082) A very lovely "gotcha," very classically Bodhi Dharma of you, it...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:54:00 -0600

A very lovely "gotcha," very classically Bodhi Dharma of you, it warms my heart
to know some things never change. :)

I think a reasonable person would interpret Imus's statement to have been made
with the intention that it be racially insulting, or at least in complete
disregard of whether it was racially insulting.

I can believe that Imus genuinely believes he was not being racially insulting,
because Don Imus is an incredibly stupid man.

"What you claim to be an easy statement to understand turns out to be a pretty
damn complex statement to understand which has a lot to do with where people
are positioned in society and how they view the world around them."

  It is a very easy statement to understand.  It only becomes complex when
  people insist upon fixing definitions for the terms for the purpose of
  a rhetorical lay-up in defense of a moronic bigot.

(Copper Lethe/173081) It was a "clearly derogatory racial statement" because it was a ...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:51:00 -0600


It was a "clearly derogatory racial statement" because it was a derogatory
statement made specifically because of the race of the subject.  I find it odd
that you don't know what is meant by a phrase made up of words with specific
meanings.

That said, there is no double standard.  The premise of the claim is faulty,
since Don Imus did not lose his career.  Hell, the guy is blessed.  He can
throw around words like "raghead" and "faggot," call Howard Stern a Jew bastard
who should be thrown in an oven, and all sorts of mysogynist statements, and
his career is going pretty strong.

(Bodhi Dharma/173080) If 'nappy headed hoes' was a "clearly derogatory statement" only...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:42:00 -0600

If 'nappy headed hoes' was a "clearly derogatory statement" only if the speaker
meant it as such and Imus claims that he didn't mean it as such, then it wasn't
a "clearly derogatory statement".
But wait, some people are going to claim that Imus was lieing when he claimed
that he didn't mean it as such.  Are they right?  Who knows?  So, 'nappy,
headed hoes' may or may not have been a "clearly derogatory statement"
depending on what a "clearly derogatory statement" is.
What you claim to be an easy statement to understand turns out to be a pretty
damn complex statement to understand which has a lot to do with where people
are positioned in society and how they view the world around them.

(Lochner/173079) "I don't know what you mean by "clearly derogatory racial statem...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:38:00 -0600


"I don't know what you mean by "clearly derogatory racial statement"."

  Are you sure?  Those are all English terms with well-known meanings.

  No matter, I'll break it down for you:

  I assume you know what a statement is.  If not, please correct me.

  By "derrogatory" I mean that the speaker intended that statement to be
  insulting, unflattering, or otherwise impart to the listener a negative
  connotation about the subject of the statement.

  By "racially" I mean that the statement pertained or related to, or in
  some fashion invoked the race of, the subject of the statement.

  By "clearly" I mean that the nature of the statement as being both
  derrogatory and racial is patent, not latent.

  Does that clear up your confusion about the meaning of that phrase?

(Bodhi Dharma/173078) I don't know what you mean by "clearly derogatory racial stateme...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 16:09:00 -0600

I don't know what you mean by "clearly derogatory racial statement".  Some
people certainly took it as a "clearly derogatory racial statement".  Then
again, some people are taking this cross dressing comedy as a "clearly
derogatory trans statement".

(Lochner/173077) It could be, I don't quite follow that. Wasn't the "nappy heade...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 15:38:00 -0600


It could be, I don't quite follow that.  Wasn't the "nappy headed hos" incident
a clearly derrogatory racial statement, and the speaker was ushered off the
network by the network itself?

(Bodhi Dharma/173076) And, yet, if you say 'nappie headed hos' on tv, you can loose yo...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 28 Dec 2011 14:28:00 -0600

And, yet, if you say 'nappie headed hos' on tv, you can loose your career. 
Double standard?

(Lochner/173075) The interesting question is whether the public broadcast channel...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 05:13:00 -0600


The interesting question is whether the public broadcast channels, as a public
good, or even the cable networks, which are natural monopolies and therefore at
least a pseudo-public good, ought to be subject to stricter regulations, such
as programming choices are "state actions" for purposes of equal protection.

My personal opinion is, "no," because programming choices get too much into
what amounts to a pure business decision, and I think it's fundamentally
different than a conventional situation where a business disallows, say, blacks
to eat there.  It's quite another thing to say that the business must serve
food from all ethnicities.

(Peccavimus/173074) Well, I call bullshit on that. Certainly those who are offended...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:48:00 -0600

Well, I call bullshit on that.  Certainly those who are offended can protest
and make it clear why they're offended.  But being offended isn't reason enough
to remove something from television.  If it were, there'd be nothing much left
on TV at all, which wouldn't much matter to me I suppose, but does seem to be
throwing out a lot of babies with very little bath water.

(Aightball/173073) Giraffe> I agree. But the problem is that many people do watch T...

Aightball@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 04:08:00 -0600

Giraffe> I agree. But the problem is that many people do watch TV and those
that watch this will be affected. That means that something has to be done to
get this show either off the air or to change its theme.

(Giraffe/173072) There's lots of stupid crap on television. Solution: don't watch...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 01:58:00 -0600

There's lots of stupid crap on television. Solution: don't watch television.
There's plenty else to do.

(Copper Lethe/173071) Yeah, I saw that.

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 20:43:00 -0600


Yeah, I saw that.
The show isn't about transgendered people at all.  Dressing up like a member of
the opposite sex doesn't make you transgendered.

It's almost like they never saw Bosom Buddies, which this show is a cheap
ripoff of (unlike Bosom Buddies, this show isn't going to last 3 episodes).

(Gespalder/173070) Speak out: ABC's new comedy just isn't funny

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 15 Dec 2011 08:49:00 -0600

Speak out: ABC's new comedy just isn't funny
As part of their winter line-up, ABC is releasing a new comedy called "Work
It," featuring two men who dress as women in order to get jobs. The problem is
that the premise reinforces false, hurtful stereotypes about transgender
people. This kind of programming only mocks those who don't adhere to society's
gender norms. Tell ABC's president to can "Work It" now.


This is from Human Rights Campaign

(Gespalder/173069) http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Careers/Seven-Views-of-Coming-Out...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 13:51:00 -0600

http://www.baselinemag.com/c/a/Careers/Seven-Views-of-Coming-Out-at-Work-219000
/?kc=BLBLBEMNL12122011STR10

Seven Views of Coming Out at Work

By Dennis McCafferty on 2011-11-02

The vast majority of Americans feel that employees should be evaluated based on
performance and not their sexual orientation or gender identity, according to a
survey from Out & Equal Workplace Advocates. While gay, lesbian, bisexual and
transgender (GLBT) adults are more open than in years past with co-workers and
supervisors, their comfort level at work lags in comparison to that felt with
family and friends. Bisexuals have considerably more difficulty with this issue
in the workplace than gays and lesbians. "These numbers show us that there is
still work to do before people are comfortable being open about their sexual
orientation at work," says Selisse Berry, executive director of Out & Equal
Workplace Advocates. "In particular, more needs to be done to ensure that
bisexuals can disclose their identities safely. The discrimination that
bisexual people face in the workplace is sometimes overlooked or dismissed."
More than 2,600 U.S. adults (including 304 who identified themselves as LGBT)
took part in the research, which was conducted by Harris Interactive.

(Bo Peep/173068) Was not that one of the coolest things ever!

Bo Peep@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 12:26:00 -0600

Was not that one of the coolest things ever!

(Giraffe/173067) Citizen testimony before Iowa legislature:

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 09:24:00 -0600

Citizen testimony before Iowa legislature:
front.moveon.org/two-lesbians-raised-a-baby-and-this-is-what-they-got

(Giraffe/173066) It was posted in News>. Subsequently deleted.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 16:13:00 -0500

It was posted in News>. Subsequently deleted.

(Paladin Grendel/173065) source on that quote?

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 17 Aug 2011 15:34:00 -0500

source on that quote?

(Peccavimus/173064) Also from Okracoke: "Good. Deport those faggots."

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 11 Aug 2011 09:15:00 -0500

Also from Okracoke:  "Good.  Deport those faggots."

(Gespalder/173058) Allegiance - A New Musical

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 20 May 2011 07:23:00 -0500

Allegiance - A New Musical
Did you hear what RACHEL MADDOW called "The Best New Thing In the World Right
Now"? Yup, George Takei's PSA about the Don't Say Gay bill! Check it out,
Allegianites, and remember to SHARE! Let's bump this puppy up.

George Takei vs. Tennessee's "Don't Say Gay" Bill
www.youtube.com
Support George! Fight back at http://bit.ly/dontsaygay George Takei takes on
the Tennessee Legislature and its "Don't Say Gay" bill, in the way only George
T...

(Paladin Grendel/173057) I have to agree with Peccavimus, as usual.

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 30 Apr 2011 06:14:00 -0500

I have to agree with Peccavimus, as usual.
Lady Gaga is irrational.

(Peccavimus/173056) I think my neighbor's beagles are reciting Goethe, but of course...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 16:19:00 -0500

I think my neighbor's beagles are reciting Goethe, but of course irrational and
nonsentient beings don't *have* real thoughts, so trying to guess them is
pointless.

(Bodhi Dharma/173055) I -think- that PG is saying that, if god doesn't make mistakes, ...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:52:00 -0500

I -think- that PG is saying that, if god doesn't make mistakes, then there is
no possibility of being born the wrong sex.  That framing the argument in this
way (whether or not god makes mistakes) drives a schism through the middle of
the LGBT community.
Of course, the argument is based on certain a priori assumptions (that there is
a 'god' and that, in this context, there is such a thing as a 'mistake'), but
he's not saying whether or not these a priori assumptions are correct.
He's just saying that Lady Gaga implicitly has.

(Giraffe/173054) Apparently he is Lady Gaga's nemesis!

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:44:00 -0500

Apparently he is Lady Gaga's nemesis!

(Peccavimus/173053) Do you guys not know who Paladin Grendel is? He has posted befo...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:37:00 -0500

Do you guys not know who Paladin Grendel is?  He has posted before, you know.

(Giraffe/173052) What did Lady Gaga say that offends you so, Paladin Grendel?

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:20:00 -0500

What did Lady Gaga say that offends you so, Paladin Grendel?

(Paladin Grendel/173051) MMM> I agree. Lady Gaga should not treat them as indentical or i...

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:14:00 -0500

MMM> I agree. Lady Gaga should not treat them as indentical or interchangeable.

Have you figured out that all of this is based on things Lady Gaga has said and
believes? I don't agree with her opinions.

(Mean Mr Mustard/173050) The gay person, in general, is inclined to sexual relations with...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:12:00 -0500

The gay person, in general, is inclined to sexual relations with people of the
same sex.  The transgendered person, generally, wants to change his or her
gender.  Those two things are not identical, and to treat them as identical is
incorrect.

(Paladin Grendel/173049) Giraffe> I agree completely. Lady Gaga should stop trying to put...

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 15:06:00 -0500

Giraffe> I agree completely. Lady Gaga should stop trying to put people into
boxes and making decisions for them.

(Giraffe/173048) Not sure what your point is, Paladin Grendel. Sexual orientation...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 12:55:00 -0500

Not sure what your point is, Paladin Grendel. Sexual orientation and gender
identity issues aren't very closely linked except for the social stigma around
both. Let's just try to be more accepting of people as individuals and stop
trying to put people into boxes and making decisions for them based on those
categories.

(Turanga Leela/173047) psychology is just applied biology.

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 11:48:00 -0500

psychology is just applied biology.

http://xkcd.com/435/

(Paladin Grendel/173046) MMM>

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 10:58:00 -0500

MMM>
"They differ
in at least one important respect, which is anatomical (rather than broadly
'biological') in nature.  It's a flawed premise."

That's a fallacy of category. anatomical is biological intrinsically.

More importantly, transgender person who want gender reassignment have a gender
preference, which is biological in nature. If there wasn't a pyschological urge
to be a specific gender, they wouldn't be paying to have gender reassignment
surgery. If it wasn't biological, then it's a matter of free will.

(Mean Mr Mustard/173045) I took sex ed in the seventh grade also--and in North Dakota, as...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:20:00 -0500

I took sex ed in the seventh grade also--and in North Dakota, as far as that
goes--and we came out of there knowing the mechanics.  I don't recall our
Health teacher making a BFD out of it; it was just part of the curriculum.  I
*DO* recall that she was the sister of Dave Wehrmeister, a pitcher with the
Padres, but that her married name was Hunter, so we always asked her if her
brother was really Catfish Hunter.  Anyway, that's neither here nor there, so
here's a cartoon from the New Yorker:

www.newyorker.com/images/2011/05/02/cartoons/110502_cartoon_063_a15695_p465.gif

(Miser/173044) MMM>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:14:00 -0500

MMM>
I think the word penetration was brought up, but the class really didn't go
into details.  And certainly nothing about culture.  This was at a public
school at grade 7.

(Knight Of Shadows/173043) Actually, you'd be surprised at how many sex ed classes around t...

Knight Of Shadows@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:08:00 -0500

Actually, you'd be surprised at how many sex ed classes around the country
didn't actually explain how to have sex back when we were kids. Not saying that
it was rampant, but it wasn't unheard of.  The theory was that it would be
encouraging them to engage in intercourse to explain to them how it is done.

(Gespalder/173042) Campfield is a man BTW. Sorry for leaving this out.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:04:00 -0500

Campfield is a man BTW. Sorry for leaving this out.
He wants parents to deal with homosexuality since sex ed is all about
reproduction

(Mean Mr Mustard/173041) Wow, they didn't explain the interaction of the penis and the va...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 09:03:00 -0500

Wow, they didn't explain the interaction of the penis and the vagina?  Based on
gender roles?  That is so weird--every Sex Ed class I've ever heard of--except
yours, of course--actually described the process.

(Miser/173040) Ges>

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 08:59:00 -0500

Ges>
When I had sex ed in school, homosexuality wasn't brought up either.  We saw a
diagram of a penis, a diagram of a vagina, and were then inundated with STD
information.  I can't say it was all that useful, honestly.  They could've at
least explained the G-spot, or what kind of lubrication works best.

Has sexual education changed to include culture since the early 90's?  I also
wonder if Ms. Campfield is concerned about the age at which these topics can
come up in school, or if teachers will be sharing their opinion on the subject.

(Mean Mr Mustard/173039) Who says that transgender and homosexual are precisely the same?...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 08:55:00 -0500

Who says that transgender and homosexual are precisely the same?  They differ
in at least one important respect, which is anatomical (rather than broadly
"biological") in nature.  It's a flawed premise.

(Paladin Grendel/173038) Personally, I disagree with Lady Gaga. I think God makes mistake...

Paladin Grendel@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 08:50:00 -0500

Personally, I disagree with Lady Gaga. I think God makes mistakes all the time.
 cleft palates, atrial holes, other birth defects, etc. I applaud modern
medicine, especially Medicines Sans Frontiers, for helping out needy children
all across the world. I also believe that Lady Gaga (when she's not drunk)
would probably contribute to these charities (probably without even realizing
the cognitive dissonance).
The problem is that Lady Gaga didn't think her logic through. her silly
ideology brings up a schism. If being gay is biological, and perfectly
acceptable as is, and has no need to be "fixed" by a heterosexual majority
society, then isn't the transgender state the same? should transgender
individuals be "happy" with their biology? why have gender reassignment
surgery? Transgender idenity is biological, and not a choice. Homosexuality is
(by the majority of gays) considered biological, and not a choice.

That argument either tears the community apart, for forces a reconsideration on
the nature of homosexuality and free will.

(Gespalder/173037) Tennessee>

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Apr 2011 08:18:00 -0500

Tennessee>

A proposed bill (0049) says that no Elementary or Middle School shall make any
mention (in sex ed) of anything except heterosexuality (this is in sex ed
classes).
You cannot use the word Homosexuality
it is being dubbed the "Don't Say Gay" Bill
Stacey Campfield is the Senator who has proposed it.

(Miser/173036) While some folks on here might agree with Arizona's new bill, I'...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 03:55:00 -0500

While some folks on here might agree with Arizona's new bill, I'd be interested
in seeing any studies, etc. they used to come to this conclusion.  And it
really seems more like a jab at gay culture than something that was really
needed, assuming that gay couples aren't "stealing away" all the adoptions..

(Gespalder/173035) Arizona's Governor signed a bill into law giving (heterosexual) ...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 22 Apr 2011 01:53:00 -0500

Arizona's Governor signed a bill into law giving (heterosexual) couples
priority over singles in all adoptions.
Arizona doesn't recognize gay marriage so gay couples don't count as couples.

Basically the lawmakers in Arizona feel that kids are better off with hetero
couples.

(MoonToad/173034) Is it 5-alpha reductase deficiency that is more common in small ...

MoonToad@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 18 Apr 2011 08:41:00 -0500

Is it 5-alpha reductase deficiency that is more common in small island nations?
I know that it happens amongst the Navajo and in Papua New Guinea.

(Giraffe/173033) WHy is that? A localized genetic variant -- such as the high inc...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 18 Apr 2011 02:56:00 -0500

WHy is that? A localized genetic variant -- such as the high incidence of red
hair among the Irish?

(Turanga Leela/173032) Yes, in some small island nations the incidence of intersex chil...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 17 Apr 2011 20:09:00 -0500

Yes, in some small island nations the incidence of intersex children is much,
much higher.

(Giraffe/173031) In the U.S.? You mean the statistics for gender ambiguity might...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:20:00 -0500

In the U.S.?  You mean the statistics for gender ambiguity might be different
elsewhere?

(Etheridge/173030) TL pretty much summed up what I mean. I'm not talking about cle...

Etheridge@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:42:00 -0500

TL pretty much summed up what I mean.  I'm not talking about clerical errors.
Those can be amended.

Rather, about 1% of children do not fall into what we typically may think of as
"male" or "female".  This may be a function of anatomical ambiguity (basically,
the doctor can't define sex by looking), or it may be a function of chromosomal
differences which result in a child who does not - at the genetic level - have
a clear "XY" or "XX" designation.  Perhaps they are XXY.  Perhaps there are
just some mutations on one leg of an "X" that transforms an "XY" or an "XX"
into neither an "XX" nor an "XY".

In any case, those situations occur in about 1 in 100 births in the U.S.  In
many cases, if the difference is at the chromosomal level but external
genitalia appears clearly male or female -- the difference may never really be
known.  In other cases, it is quite clear from birth.

(Turanga Leela/173029) She is talking about both 2 and 3 I think. The folks in category...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:38:00 -0500

She is talking about both 2 and 3 I think. The folks in category 2 get royally
screwed across the board - by doctors with god complexes, by bigoted states
which refuse to update the birth certificate's accuracy, by parents who were
pressured by doctors to push the child in one role or another, again by doctors
who make documentation in medical records vague so they are "legally"
accurate but intellectually dishonest (i.e., referring to abnormal genitalia as
"benign tumors" or hypospadias as a "hernia" - /technically/ accurate perhaps,
but isn't a specific description), and then we get screwed by health providers
who will treat TG folk but not cover IS folk - why? Because transsexualism is a
mental disorder and the treatment is HRT and surgery, but for IS folk it's
cosmetic and therefore elective.    Then, we're getting screwed by so called
"marriage protection" laws, where if the legislation is enforced as written
(much of that legislation is "a woman born a woman may marry a man born a man"
or phrasing to that effect) then we intersex folk would not be able to legally
marry anyone.

Where a simple M or F is inaccurate it should be fixed. Not amended as in added
on but the original document updated/replaced with the accurate information,
especially where doctors fucked up. Or, perhaps an I or H (intersex or
hermaphrodite) classification needs to be added - but then bigots will be
bigots and will discriminate based on that classification.

It sucks.

(Giraffe/173028) Etheridge: Can you please elaborate on your claim that about 1% ...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 13 Apr 2011 07:17:00 -0500

Etheridge: Can you please elaborate on your claim that about 1% of birth
certificates fail to provide accurate gender identification? I can think of
three distinct categories of error, and we should be clear what you are talking
about: (1) clerical errors, (2) cases of genital ambiguity, (3) cases in which
an individual who appears to be m/f but at some point in life chooses to
identify as f/m.

(Etheridge/173027) Birth certificates aren't simple historical documents, and they ...

Etheridge@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 12 Apr 2011 14:21:00 -0500

Birth certificates aren't simple historical documents, and they are a form of
identification.  You may have to present your birth certificate in order to
obtain a drivers license.  In Ohio, you need your birth certificate in order to
apply for public assistance programs.  Birth certificates are considered proof
of citizenship in that you were born in the U.S.

When Jennifer Smith goes to Job and Family services for her face-to-face
appointment (required in Ohio) to apply for Medicaid and presents a birth
certificate that identifies her as John Smith, that's a problem.  Even if you
present records of your legal name change, you're still in legal limbo for some
programs.  For example, can Jennifer apply for WIC benefits for herself and her
2 year old son?  (WIC = Women Infants and Children)  She may not qualify since
her birth certificate identifies her as male, and at the very least it's going
to turn an already unpleasant process of trying to get help into a nightmare as
she has to justify her appearance and conflicting documents over and over
again.

If Jennifer Smith is arrested, does she wind up in lock up with men or women?
Her photo ID is likely to list her as male if she resides in a state which
doesn't allow the birth record to be amended.

The reality is this - birth certificates force families into choosing between a
false dichotomy of male vs. female...even in cases which an infant is not
clearly either.  About 1 in 100 children are born with some level of
chromosomal or physical abnormality that results in the child not clearly
meeting the traditional definition of "male" or "female".  Some of these
situations are evident based on the infant's appearance, while other issues may
be at the chromosomal level and not have major impact on physical appearance.

Why insist that the birth record is accurate when an argument can be made that
in about 1% of cases we know that it isn't?  That sometimes it's really just
the physician and parents' best guess?  This is the standard we want to cling
to in order to deny transgender individuals the ability to have their
documentation match the gender they identify with in their work, personal
lives, legal records, and so on?  C'mon.

(Peccavimus/173026) He's claiming to have written something he didn't. That's at le...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:56:00 -0500

He's claiming to have written something he didn't.  That's at least deception.
Although to be fair, he might not realize he's doing so by putting his name on
it and posting it without attribution.

(Bodhi Dharma/173025) He's not submitting it to a peer-reviewed journal and is, in no ...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 13:32:00 -0500

He's not submitting it to a peer-reviewed journal and is, in no way,
benefitting from posting the article.
I don't believe that plagiarizing is possible under the circumstances.

(Giraffe/173024) I think copy-and-paste syndrome is possibly a form of OCD.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 06:00:00 -0500

I think copy-and-paste syndrome is possibly a form of OCD.

(Egregious/173023) Is your name Wayne Besen? If not, why are you plagiarizing his

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 11 Apr 2011 05:55:00 -0500


Is your name Wayne Besen?  If not, why are you plagiarizing his
words and representing them as your own?

(Gespalder/173022) Wow! This afternoon, Truth Wins Out launched a petition on Chang...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 16:29:00 -0500

Wow! This afternoon, Truth Wins Out launched a petition on Change.org asking
Kosher.com to stop allowing the notorious Jewish "ex-gay" group JONAH (Jews
Offering New Alternatives to Homosexuality) to participate as an affiliate in
their shopping rewards program.

In just over 90 minutes, over 1,000 of you signed our petition, and Kosher.com
responded:

Firstly we wish to apologize if any action taken by any member of our company
offended anyone. Our affiliate program has pretty much been an automated system
whereby any site can go and join the program and put our banners in their email
blasts going to their members.

In the past it was not something that we had monitored but considering the
current reaction regarding jonahweb.org's decision to send their members our
affiliate offerings, we have decided to discontinue that affiliation and our
management will review our affiliate programs guidelines going forward.

Our agenda is simply to be a good company selling a good product and to be
considerate of people's feelings and sensitivities.

(Giraffe/173021) They let TEH GAY be judges now, I guess. Pretty shocking.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:53:00 -0500

They let TEH GAY be judges now, I guess. Pretty shocking.

(Peccavimus/173020) So?

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:50:00 -0500

So?

(Gespalder/173019) SACBEE.COM BREAKING NEWS ALERT

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 07 Apr 2011 17:46:00 -0500

SACBEE.COM BREAKING NEWS ALERT

Judge who struck down Prop. 8 confirms he's gay

The federal judge who struck down California's gay marriage ban has confirmed
that he's gay.

(-- anonymous -- <>/173018) With the exception of abuse, I find it hard to fathom why would ...

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 11:10:25 -0500

With the exception of abuse, I find it hard to fathom why would anyone
object.

Why should it be changed?   For the protection and privacy of the
individual that this information affects.

This is the same reason that other certificates have birth information
changed.

Look at birth certificates for adopted children.  They often have
the adoptive parents listed, not the original birth parents.

The original certificate may still exist, and be sealed by the court.
This is done for privacy reasons.    They change them for the protection
of the individuals that this information reflects.

Recently there was an incident where an individual was publically mocked
and humiliated by an entire office of DMV workers because they had an 'M'
on their records and looked like an 'F'.  They were made to "male up"
and get the picture taken looking like a man..    And that's just the
tip of the iceberg.   I can come up with a huge list of incidents, where
when one has to present official information and ends up harassed
when outed.     It's not safe to be trans...  And not all of us can
simply blow mistaken records of with "well that is obviously an error".

The court has a long history of changing birth certificates for the
protection of individuals, and even for the convenience of the
individuals (in the case of simple name changes)

There is a paper trail if needed, but not one that needs to be presented
alongside the certificate.

Allowing name changes to "making searches easier" isn't the reason.
You can search off any other info...  Birthdate location, and one other
bit of info will find nearly any certificate without even knowing the
person's name.      It just makes it easier when you have to present
the certificate for something, you don't have to carry along a lot of
other supporting information along with it, and then h ope that
the individual looking at this info thinks it's valid.

Let the court settle it in one place, seal the records, and be done.

"Why should it be changed if somebody changes genders?  Your sex doesn't
change, even if you go through gender re-assignment procedures."

That made me cringe, I'd be hard pressed to come up with something more
insulting there.

Two ways to look at it.
It sounds like you are arguing that a certificate means "a person was born
here with this information".

In reality, what the certificate is most often used to mean is "this person
was born here with this information."

If it were simply a record in a database never to be looked at again
except by a statistician - then it wouldn't matter to anyone at all.

(Gespalder/173017) http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/mississauga...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 17:19:00 -0500

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/toronto/mississauga-high-school-ba
ns-gay-straight-alliance/article1946936/

Mississauga high school bans gay-straight alliance
TAMARA BALUJA AND KATE HAMMER
From Friday's Globe and Mail
Published Friday, Mar. 18, 2011 3:00AM EDT
Last updated Friday, Mar. 18, 2011 5:15AM EDT

Fresh on the heels of a neighbouring GTA school board's decision to ban
gay-straight alliances, a group of Mississauga teens were also barred from
launching a gay-straight alliance (GSA) at their Catholic high school.

The group's founder, 16-year-old Leanne Iskander, approached St. Joseph's
Catholic Secondary School principal Frances Jacques to start a gay-straight
alliance recently and was flatly turned down, Xtra! reported Thursday.

The gay and lesbian newspaper reported that Ms. Iskander was told, "There's
already supports in place at the school, such as guidance counsellors. Also, a
GSA is premature for your age."

However, Bruce Campbell, spokesman for Dufferin-Peel Catholic District School
Board told The Globe and Mail Thursday that "the principal did not say that
students could not meet for discussion, but rather asked her [Ms. Iskander] to
work within the many structures in place to meet their needs."

It's a decision that Mr. Campbell said "the board wholeheartedly supports."

It's an approach that brings Catholic Church doctrine more and more into
conflict with the new equity and inclusion policy of Ontario's Ministry of
Education, which says GSAs should be allowed to form.

So far, individual school boards have been allowed to amend the policy as they
see fit, so long as alternative forms of support are offered. The Catholic
boards contend broader groups that support student spirit are suitable
alternatives.

In neighbouring Halton Catholic District School Board, chairwoman Alice LeMay
came under fire recently when she told Xtra! the board "doesn't allow Nazi
groups either. Gay-straight alliances are banned because they are not within
the teachings of the Catholic Church." Public outrage forced the HCDSB to lift
the ban on GSAs, but it still does not allow any student group with the word
"gay" in its title.

Mr. Campbell said the St. Joseph's principal offered to help the 30 interested
students by arranging discussions with the school's chaplain and social worker,
and suggested they join other equity groups already existing in the school or
refer to Courage Toronto, an Archdiocese-supported organization that supports
young people with same-sex orientation.

"The student indicated that she was not interested in faith-based resources,"
Mr. Campbell said. "The principal indicated that, as a Catholic school,
however, it is from a faith-based perspective that we would approach
discussions if this is to move forward, just as a faith perspective is part of
any club or activity at a Catholic school."

In defiance of the school's decision, Ms. Iskander has launched a Facebook
group called St. Joes Gay-Straight Alliance.

Posted on the webpage is a letter sent by Ms. Iskander to the school principal,
in which she writes, "I would like to make it clear that groups such as these
do not in any way impose upon the religious freedom or denominational rights of
the Catholic School Board."

John Martin Tabilin, 18, is an openly gay student at St. Joseph's Secondary
School. He is part of a group of about 30 students who support starting a GSA
at the school.

"It think it's kind of pointless [banning GSAs] because the religion may not
support us [gay and lesbian youth], but we're part of the school community and
they should be creating a more safe environment for us," Mr. Tabilin said. "For
me personally, I've experienced a lot of homophobia, like, I've been bullied.
They don't bully physically but they give you stares, they use discriminatory
words, like they call you 'fag.'"

Ms. Iskander said the group's next move will be to call the Canadian Civil
Liberties Association.

(Bodhi Dharma/173016) The best guess when it comes down to ambiguous genitalia -isn't-...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:55:00 -0500

The best guess when it comes down to ambiguous genitalia -isn't- M/F.  It's H.

(Lochner/173015) Probably, but my point is that it's not really form of "identifi...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:28:00 -0500

Probably, but my point is that it's not really form of "identification" in the
same sense that a driver's license is.  It's a proof of birth, proof of
citizenship.

Why should it be changed if somebody changes genders?  Your sex doesn't change,
even if you go through gender re-assignment procedures.

If the concern is that the person no longer identifies with their birth sex, I
get that, but the birth certificate is not the right place to reinforce the
sense of self.  It's a record, not an ID.

(Nohirsute/173014) use it to get a passport ---- and soc. sec. card, - -- and regis...

Nohirsute@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 18:25:00 -0500

 use it to get a passport ---- and soc. sec. card, - -- and register for draft
- - and believe it's still acceptable "proof of citizenship" to re-enter via
ground transport from Mexico and Canada

(Lochner/173013) What does that have to do with a transgender person? You do the...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:32:00 -0500


What does that have to do with a transgender person?  You do the same thing
they do now -- take a best guess and if later testing proves the guess was
wrong you might change the birth certificate.  Or might not.

The birth certificate is to record a birth.  I think it's far more meaningful
and important that forms of identification you actually use for identification
purposes, like a driver's license, conform to your gender.

The birth certificate?  You use it to get a passport and that's about it.

(Turanga Leela/173012) What about those born with ambiguous genitalia?

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:31:00 -0500

What about those born with ambiguous genitalia?

(Lochner/173011) The "M" and "F" categories are meant to be broad based on the lo...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 16:18:00 -0500


The "M" and "F" categories are meant to be broad based on the look test.  What
did the child present at birth?  That's what we write down.

(Turanga Leela/173010) It introduces problems for intersex folk. The only choices on th...

Turanga Leela@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 11:11:00 -0500

It introduces problems for intersex folk. The only choices on the certificate
are M or F not IS or H.

(Lochner/173009) A birth certificate is a certificate recording a historical even...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Mar 2011 09:51:00 -0500


A birth certificate is a certificate recording a historical event - the live
birth of a human being.  Your mother, weight, size, sex, and other information
is captured thereon.   The only reason names are later amended is so the record
can be located.

It's a certificate of BIRTH, not of your current gender assignment, and it's
meant to record facts about the birth.

(-- anonymous -- <>/173008) The thing is this isn't accounting. The problem with birth

Sat, 11 Jun 2011 11:10:21 -0500

The thing is this isn't accounting.   The problem with birth
certificates, is that they are not really used as "records of
birth".   They used for identification, citizenship status, etc.

There is a long history of the court sealing records for
privacy purposes in many types of cases.

Having an "amended birth certificate" only serves to
"out" sally.  There's no real compelling reason to keep
the old information around, all it does is serve to hamper.

The record itself has no effect on anyone other than the individual.

The main consideration would be fraud, the process and procedure of
gender transition would prevent people from abusing the system and
changing things for fraud purposes.  There is a paper trail (that
doesn't have to be presented to anyone)

There are other information trails that can be used to trace someone,
trails that are more common to look at than birth certificates,
(court ordered changes of name would be one of the first places
someone would look in such instances)

(Bodhi Dharma/173007) Ges> At first, when I read your article, I thought it was an att...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:26:00 -0500

Ges> At first, when I read your article, I thought it was an attack against
free speech.  Then, I realized it was exactly the opposite.  It was a triumph
of free speech.  The government didn't force this on anybody, the free market
did.
And, on a personal level, may the Exodus crowd burn in hell.

(Gespalder/173006) From another group who took on Apple

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 14:22:00 -0500

From another group who took on Apple

Wow. We won!

Tuesday night, Apple dumped Exodus International's "gay cure" iPhone app after
more than 150,000 people joined Truth Wins Out and Change.org in calling for
its removal. The app was pulled by Apple, as they apparently recognized that
Exodus demonizes LGBT people, calling them perverse and saying that
homosexuality will "make your heart sick."

To make this moment possible, Truth Wins Out applied tremendous pressure in the
form of a sustained, two-week-long multimedia campaign that caught the
attention of media outlets around the world, from CNN and MSNBC to the Wall
Street Journal and Guardian UK.

This major victory for the Truth Wins Out community means that Exodus has one
less platform through which to expose LGBT youth to their dangerous, hateful,
and scientifically bankrupt message.

(Two Minute Hate/173005) Congratulations, you just psoted a sentence with 5 negatives in ...

Two Minute Hate@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 12:25:00 -0500


 Congratulations, you just psoted a sentence with 5 negatives in it.

(Gespalder/173004) Sorry for the double, this just arrived

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 12:25:00 -0500

Sorry for the double, this just arrived

Dear Steve,

Amazing! After more than 150,000 petition signatures from Change.org members
and saturation media coverage, news outlets worldwide are reporting that Apple
has pulled an iPhone application launched by Exodus International that claimed
to help "cure" gay and lesbian people.

This is a huge, public victory against the dangerous myth that gay young people
can and should be "turned straight" -- a falsehood that contributes to the
plague of depression and suicide afflicting these kids and young adults. Our
friends at Truth Wins Out, the organization that started the petition on
Change.org, are absolutely thrilled.

Apple did the right thing because an incredible 151,125 Change.org members --
including you -- stood together to demand it. We spread the word on Facebook
more than 55,000 times. And together we attracted the attention of media around
the globe, including CNN, MSNBC, Fox, ABC, CBS, and hundreds of newspapers and
blogs.

It's simply amazing. Thank you for making this victory possible.

- Eden and the Change.org team

P.S. In the past few months, Change.org members have won dozens of victories
like this one, from freeing tortured human rights activists in Bahrain to
pushing the world's largest florist to start selling Fair Trade flowers.
They're all possible because someone, somewhere takes the initiative to start a
campaign to change something important.

(Gespalder/173003) SACBEE.COM BREAKING NEWS ALERT

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 12:23:00 -0500

SACBEE.COM BREAKING NEWS ALERT

9th Circuit denies request to lift stay on Prop. 8 ruling

The 9th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals denied a motion today to lift its stay on
a lower court ruling declaring unconstitutional voter-approved Proposition 8,
which prohibited same-sex marriage.

(Two Minute Hate/173002) Unless you are running for President. THen you can change whatev...

Two Minute Hate@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:51:00 -0500


 Unless you are running for President. THen you can change whatever you want.

(Nohirsute/173001) Agree with Lochner -- a birth certificate is a "record" -- it's ...

Nohirsute@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 05:45:00 -0500

Agree with Lochner -- a birth certificate is a "record" -- it's what WAS at
birth.  There are ways of amending things without changing the original, thus
codacils for  Wills, amendments to constitutions, amendments to contracts,
change-orders in medical records, change-orders to architectural drawings --
but the original is intact as a record/paper trail.  In accounting you make
correcting entries, you DON'T CHANGE an entry, you don't OBLITERATE and entry.

(Lochner/173000) That's a toughie, but my opinion is that the answer depends on w...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:50:00 -0500


That's a toughie, but my opinion is that the answer depends on why we record
gender on birth certificates.

If it's to note the child's sex at birth, they shouldn't change.

(Miser/172999) Transgender people sue to have birth records changed

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 04:44:00 -0500

Transgender people sue to have birth records changed
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42220931/ns/health-health_care/

I understand the concerns with complications getting new IDs and being flagged
for having conflicting information on IDs, but this just seems silly.  My own
opinion is that a birth record is a birth record, and the whole thing is
nonsense.  But the excuses provided by officials seem even more ludicris.  It's
sad to me that we're wasting tax dollars fighting this even though I don't
necessarily support it.

(Gespalder/172998) California AG asks court to lift gay marriage stay

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 01 Mar 2011 12:27:00 -0600

California AG asks court to lift gay marriage stay

California's attorney general has asked a federal appeals court to allow gay
marriages to resume while the court considers the constitutionality of the
state's ban on same-sex unions.

From SacBee.com

(Gespalder/172997) Feb 2, 2011 03:49 from KAM

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 02 Feb 2011 07:55:00 -0600

Feb 2, 2011 03:49 from KAM
Illinois signs civil unions bill into law

(CNN) -- Illinois joined five other states Monday in legalizing civil unions, a
move that will give same sex couples many of the legal protections that are now
granted to married couples.

Governor Pat Quinn signed the law in front a crowd of cheering residents during
a ceremony in a Chicago auditorium.

"Today is an important day in the history of our state because today we are
showing the world that the people of Illinois believe in equality for all,"
Quinn said. "We look forward to individuals and businesses from across the
country choosing to move to Illinois where we believe that everyone is entitled
to the same rights."

The provision which goes in effect on June 1 is calledSenate Bill 1716 and
creates the Illinois Religious Freedom Protection and Civil Union Act.

The new law will allow same sex and heterosexual couples to enter into civil
unions granting them many rights given to married couples.

These rights include automatic hospital visitation rights, the ability to make
emergency medical decisions for partners, the ability to share a room in a
nursing home, adoption and parental rights, pension benefits, inheritance
rights, and the right to dispose of a partner's remains, the governor's office
said.

"In addition to Illinois, five other states and the District of Columbia have
civil unions or similar laws on the books. Those states include California,
Nevada, New Jersey, Oregon and Washington," the governor's office said.

But some groups in Illinois object to the new law

Illinois Family Institute, a non-profit group that says it wants to reaffirm
marriage in the state, called the law "divisive."

"Gov. Quinn should reject this anti-family bill and reject the efforts of the
homosexual lobby to impose this highly contentious and controversial policy on
the people of Illinois," said David E. Smith, executive director of the group.

But couples like Mercedes Santos and Theresa Volpe said the new law will
dramatically change their lives.

It gives them the rights that other families have when it comes to their
six-year-old daughter and two-year-old son, they told CNN affiliate WLS.

"Our son actually has some illnesses, so going into the hospital, being able to
say that we can both be in the room with him and make decisions without too
many questions, just makes it easier for us," Santos told the affiliate.



Find this article at:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/US/02/01/illinois.civil.unions
[Late Breaking News> msg #46769

(Gespalder/172996) Nov 12, 2010 12:58 from Okracoke

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 12 Nov 2010 12:19:00 -0600

Nov 12, 2010 12:58 from Okracoke
WASHINGTON (AP) . The Supreme Court on Friday allowed the "don't ask, don't
tell" policy on gays in the military to remain in place while a federal appeals
court considers the issue.

The court did not comment in denying a request from the Log Cabin Republicans,
a gay rights group, to step into the ongoing federal court review of "don't
ask, don't tell." The Obama administration urged the high court not to get
involved at this point.

Last month, a federal judge ruled that the policy violates the civil rights of
gay Americans and she issued an injunction barring the Pentagon from applying
it. But the San Francisco-based appeals court said the policy could remain in
effect while it considers the administration's appeal.

President Barack Obama has pledged to push lawmakers to repeal the law in the
lame-duck session before a new Congress is sworn in. But administration lawyers
have in the meantime defended "don't ask, don't tell" in court.

The policy, which prohibits gays and lesbians from serving openly in the
military, was lifted for eight days in October after U.S. District Judge
Virginia Phillips ruled that it is unconstitutional. The Obama administration
asked the appeals court to reinstate the ban until it could hear arguments on
the broader constitutional issues next year.

Justice Elena Kagan did not take part in the court's consideration of the
issue. Kagan served as the administration's chief Supreme Court lawyer before
she became a justice in August.
[Military> msg #90410

(Lochner/172995) For what it's worth, I didn't announce my heterosexual marriage ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 26 Oct 2010 04:02:00 -0500


For what it's worth, I didn't announce my heterosexual marriage and I feel no
less married for it.  Get hitched.  Whoever doesn't like it can go to church.

(Shag/172994) The paper in question appears to be the "Union Leader" and certa...

Shag@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 20:04:00 -0500

The paper in question appears to be the "Union Leader" and certainly, if you
think papers should run gay wedding announcements, you should vote with your
wallet.  Subscribe to, and/or advertise in, and/or submit your info for a
free wedding announcement in, some other publication.

That said, this article on a gay news site was a little interesting:
http://www.edgeboston.com/index.php?ch=news&sc=&sc2=news&sc3=&id=112007

Let me suggest that gay couples do a _wee_ bit more research into who
will, and won't, publish a wedding announcement for them.  Preferably
before schlepping from their own non-gay-marrying state to a place two
states away that will marry them.

That way they won't make the faux pas of asking for a free announcement
in a newspaper whose "conservative -- and even anti-gay -- editorial
positions are widely known," according to the New Hampshire-raised
national news editor of a gay news site! :)

(Peccavimus/172992) Yup, and we have every right to tell that newspaper to stuff its...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 25 Oct 2010 23:36:00 -0500

Yup, and we have every right to tell that newspaper to stuff itself.

Of course, that's not as fun as building a strawman, like the anon wants to do.