Gender Issues

(Cate/91930) Curves caters to non-physically fit women who have previously be...

Cate@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 13:27:00 -0500

Curves caters to non-physically fit women who have previously been inactive and
the simple circuit training regime followed there is a means to ease women into
working out at the gym.  As a former member of Curves a few years ago, I can
say it was for women who were wary of joining a real gym because they would
feel intimidated by men AND women who were more physically fit then they were
and felt out of place in higher level exercise classes and with more
complicated fitness equipment.  Curves allows women to earn Curves Cash on
their visits too which they can trade in for water bottles, towels, tote bags
etc. as extra motivation to workout.  It is not meant to be a lifetime gym for
women but an introduction to fitness in a non-pressure, non-intimidating
environment.  As a member becomes more comfortable with a physical fitness
routine, they will eventually outgrow Curves and be ready to move on to a
bigger gym with exercise classes and better fitness equipment.  They will feel
less intimidated by the others around them and self-conscious about how they
look and be able to just be focused on their workout and not those superficial
factors.

(Miser/91929) Pansies.

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Mar 2011 02:48:00 -0500

Pansies.

(Bodhi Dharma/91928) I've known guys who say they don't like to work out in gyms beca...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 21:01:00 -0500

I've known guys who say they don't like to work out in gyms because they don't
like to be next to gym rats.  It makes them feel inadequate/insufficient
because they don't have Adonis bodies.
I can certainly see how, for straight guys, that sense is heightened in the
presense of women.

(Hroswitha/91927) I have, though, known several women who did attend Curves. They...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 19:34:00 -0500


I have, though, known several women who did attend Curves.  They tend to be
very defensive about it, and I remember one argued that no woman who went there
had anything in the way of economic favors to give.  Could it be a pick-up
place for lesbians?  Hell, yeah.  Hard to see how that's any better than the
leering men.

All I'm saying is, recognize that some women (not all) have difficulty with the
prospect of exercising next to sweating and, often, leering men.  Even if they
don't leer, many will still feel intimidated and alienated.  Whether or not
they should, they do feel as though the aren't welcome or aren't recognized as
legitimate users of the equipment.  Curves meets that need.  I don't know if
power and favors trade hands between women there, but I will say this...

In general, women still have less in the way of favors to trade.  Fewer female
CEOs, department chairs, medical chiefs, etc.  Less power to trade typically
means they're less likely to be passing favors back and forth.

That's all I'm saying.

(Peccavimus/91926) So what you're saying is . . . boxers are gay?

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 13:01:00 -0500

So what you're saying is . . . boxers are gay?

I mean, I knew *wrestlers* were.

(Bodhi Dharma/91925) SE> But do they generally do it in the same gym?

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:22:00 -0500

SE> But do they generally do it in the same gym?

(Smoke Eater/91924) Not lately. Women box too nowadays.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:22:00 -0500

Not lately.  Women box too nowadays.

(Bodhi Dharma/91923) Boxing gyms are typically men only (if not officially so)

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:10:00 -0500

Boxing gyms are typically men only (if not officially so)

(Peccavimus/91922) I suspect the first question asked of a men's only gym would be ...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 06:07:00 -0500

I suspect the first question asked of a men's only gym would be "so, how gay do
you have to be to join?"

(Smoke Eater/91921) No, Hroswitha, I didn't misunderstand.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 05:09:00 -0500

No, Hroswitha, I didn't misunderstand.

Yes, Curves purports to offer that to their clientele, and they say there's no
power or money issues....   but how do we know there isn't?  If there were a
men-only gym, that would be the FIRST question asked, but we're just supposed
to take womens' word for it?

(Hroswitha/91920) Smoke Eater - you misunderstood my earlier post about the gym.

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Mar 2011 04:15:00 -0500


Smoke Eater - you misunderstood my earlier post about the gym.

The gym I attend is mixed sex and draws people in their 20s and people in their
60s of all races.  No gathering I have yet witnessed there is over anything
other than how to properly climb the wall.

Curves is not about shutting men out for the sake of power or money.  I have
never attended this gym - please remember that - but those women I've known who
did joined to escape male ogling, avoid the perceived necessity of looking good
while working out, and the intimidation factor as they approach the weight
benches.  It's about taking sex out of the equation for many of them.  I don't
feel the need for such protections, but some women do.

(Bodhi Dharma/91919) That came off a bit wrong. I do think postmodernism has value -...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 02:07:00 -0500

That came off a bit wrong.  I do think postmodernism has value - once, that is,
one goes through the trouble of deflating it of all the hot air.  But, it's
value is largely around the idea of it's emphasis on positioned subjects and
metanarratives.  And neither of those are new ideas that postmodernism brought
to the table.  Those ideas were floating around for decades in the social
sciences before postmodernism ever showed up.
What happened is much like, in web technology, where buzz was artificially
built up around the ideas of AJAX and "the Cloud".  I just don't have much
tolerance for buzzword bingo.

(Bodhi Dharma/91918) Gwynn> "it sounded like you were going more for, academic makes

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 24 Mar 2011 01:59:00 -0500

Gwynn> "it sounded like you were going more for, academic makes
incomprehensible statement, thinks it's profound".  Yes, that's what happened
with the Sokal affair.
You think that's somehow different from "magazine gets jargon-laced lengthy
article from scientist, fails to vet it properly", but the latter is only just
an example of the former.
And remember that it wasn't just the journal which fell for the article.  A lot
of academics supported the article when it was published.
And, no, I'm not condemning all or even most academics.  Largely because I
don't think all or most academics are post-modernists.

(Peccavimus/91916) I wouldn't worry about trying to understand academic jargon. Th...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 17:12:00 -0500

I wouldn't worry about trying to understand academic jargon.  Those grapes are
probably sour anyway.

(Gwynn/91915) Sure. I'm not at all certain it's the great big deal it's made o...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:53:00 -0500

Sure. I'm not at all certain it's the great big deal it's made out to be
though. From the sound of it, it sounded like you were going more for, academic
makes incomprehensible statement, thinks it's profound. That's more what I was
looking for, not, magazine gets jargon-laced lengthy article from scientist,
fails to vet it properly. I mean, sure, that's an issue, but that's one
journal. I hardly think that convicts all or even a significant portion of
academia.

(Bodhi Dharma/91914) Gwynn> You want an example of post-modern academics confusing in...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 16:21:00 -0500

Gwynn> You want an example of post-modern academics confusing incomprehensible
statements for academic statements?  Have you ever heard of the Sokal affair?

(Gwynn/91912) Care to give us some relevant examples, Bodhi? I've seen jargon ...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:59:00 -0500

Care to give us some relevant examples, Bodhi? I've seen jargon used to make
things damn near impenetrable, and while I frown on that sort of thing myself,
jargon should only be used where necessary, I'd hardly say any example I've
seen is incomprehensible. Once you know the jargon, you can get what they're
saying, with some work perhaps, but still.

(Bodhi Dharma/91911) I take that back. The greatest travesty of post-modernism is th...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:22:00 -0500

I take that back.  The greatest travesty of post-modernism is that academics
confused the practice of making incomprehensible statements for making academic
statements.
The rejection of the physical body is just a travesty.

(Bodhi Dharma/91910) The greatest travesty of post-modernism, in my opinion, is the r...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Mar 2011 15:11:00 -0500

The greatest travesty of post-modernism, in my opinion, is the rejection of the
physical body.
To make but one example, at the end of the day, male and female bodies have
different hormone balances.  Ask any transsexual who had been through HRT and
they'll tell you that these hormones certainly do have an impact on how a
person thinks/feels/acts/etc.  People like to spend time with people they've
got things in common.  It's only natural that part of the "things in common"
might include things as pervasive and potent as hormones.  We've all heard of
testosterone poisoning, adrenaline junkies, swimming in estrogen, etc.

(Rian/91909) I'd second that. My daughter will be going to a camp the beginn...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 12:13:00 -0500

I'd second that.  My daughter will be going to a camp the beginning of August
that she attends every year... this will be her 4th year running.  They do rope
and rock climbing, rowing, hiking, camping with tents and blankets only, with
campfire cooking.  And that will be on the heels of a hiking and camping trip
to Peru, with hours-long hikes and outdoor camping following a weekend service
project.  Then she can come back and see if the Boy Scouts have learned to make
Smores yet :)

(SIIFG/91908) Girl Scouts learn to camp, build fires, go cannoing and we even ...

SIIFG@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 11:48:00 -0500

Girl Scouts learn to camp, build fires, go cannoing and we even have camps that
have horses... My niece sold $500 in cookies this year and earned $150 in camp
dollars that she can use at camp or the Girl Scout store; she also earned
prizes... and just like Boy Scouts what the child learns or doesn't learn has
to do with the leader. So not all GS are crafty and artsy... some of us can out
scout the boys...

(Feoh/91907) Quite right Peccavimus, when I first had this discussion this wa...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:48:00 -0500

Quite right Peccavimus, when I first had this discussion this was pointed out
to me, and in fact there were a bunch of very differening viewpionts
represented all of which considered themselves feminists.

What I should have said was "The hard core feminists who participated in the
original instance of this discussion on Facebook and who asserted that any
organization that discriminates based on sex is immoral."

(Peccavimus/91906) There's no such thing as "the feminists." There are lots of dif...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:35:00 -0500

There's no such thing as "the feminists."  There are lots of different
feminists, espousing different feminisms.  The straw feminist is always someone
making some absurd claim (usually Andrea Dworkin), and then all feminism gets
dismissed.

(Feoh/91905) WRT Curves: That's eactly my point. The feminists would have us...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 09:30:00 -0500

WRT Curves: That's eactly my point.  The feminists would have us believe that
such things are immoral because they discriminate against men.  Honestly, I
think that's silly.  The reasons you gave are entirely moral and
understandable, and I think there *should* be places like that for those who
want them.

(Smoke Eater/91904) Oops...didn't mean to be anon, that was a mistake. That last po...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 07:56:00 -0500

Oops...didn't mean to be anon, that was a mistake.  That last post was me.

(-- anonymous -- <>/91903) Refernce Curves:

Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:50:23 -0500

Refernce Curves:

If there's any career advancement going on over treadmills at this rec center,
it would only be passed along through iPod headphones.  As far as I can tell,
this place is JUST about the sweat.  Which is as it should be.

That's what you said, Hros...  but since men aren't allowed in, I guess we'll
never know.  Further, if there were a men-only gym, women would be completely
up in arms because they would ASSUME things are going on there.

(Hroswitha/91902) Just a quick reminder about companies like Curves:

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Mar 2011 07:36:00 -0500


Just a quick reminder about companies like Curves:

That gym exists in order to address problems many women have had when
attempting to attend conventional gyms.  Writing as a woman who goes to a rec
center populated primarily by younger individuals and dominated by young men, I
can see the problem.

When women attend a gym populated by only other women - particularly older
women - they won't feel as out of place.  I feel intimidated at the prospect of
using the weight machines, where all the would-be male athletes hang out, and
some sections of the gym seem unavailable to me.  An all-female gym also lets
out much of the ogling factor - although younger women might find hook-ups
through gym memberships interesting, older women will not, and will prefer to
take aerobics and swimming classs away from the male gaze.  Curves also
advertises trainers with experience in helping older, out of shape women with
workouts that allow them to ramp up gradually without too much pain, and they
specialize in weight loss programs.  I have known several women who started up
at Curves after having babies to get rid of that baby tummy.  With experienced
trainers on staff to help with targeted workouts, they felt much more
comfortable than they would be if they just attended a local rec center.

I do not have a membership at such a gym - I typically don't find myself as
troubled by exercizing next to buff young men in their 20s - and I'm starting
to see more women in their 60s attending to use the bikes and treadmills, but
this is fairly new.  Eventually, I would hope the novelty of co-ed workouts
will end the need for separate facilities, whether we're talking about tacitly
all-male companies or those marketed specifically for women.

If there's any career advancement going on over treadmills at this rec center,
it would only be passed along through iPod headphones.  As far as I can tell,
this place is JUST about the sweat.  Which is as it should be.

Boy Scouts/Girl Scouts - I am the mother of a Boy Scout.  There are differences
between the two orgaizations, and they aren't good.  While my son goes to camp
every summer and learns to canoe, build a cabin, fish, shoot a .22 caliber
rifle, and cook over a camp fire, girls his age are relegated to light camping,
crafts, and cookery.  It's a crock.

My son sold over $5000 in Boy Scout popcorn last year.  In return, he got $900
in gift cards and $1500 for his own personal account with the scouts.  That
account will pay for equipment, camps, activities, badges, trips, etc.  Girl
Scouts sell cookies, and get on average $.40 per box.  All that money goes to
the council, not to the local troops.  None of it benefits the girls who sell
it directly, and their prizes are along the line of highlighter pens, pink
notebooks, pencil sets.

The disparity between the groups bothers me a lot.  Girls craft; boys learn
archery.  Gee - which one would be more fun?  Next year, Max can go to a camp
and learn to ride a horse.  11 year old Girl Scouts can go to a camp where they
stay in cabins and go on limited hikes.

I'm so glad I don't have a girl.

(Feoh/91901) There are actually a number of geek girl coder groups, though I'...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:56:00 -0500

There are actually a number of geek girl coder groups, though I'm pretty sure
they'd be less than pleased about the idea of using said groups as a cruising
strip to pick up girls :)

(WORF/91900) I would think that geeks out there would love more groups like S...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:47:00 -0500


I would think that geeks out there would love more groups like SWE.

Where else can male techies meet like minded women?  :)

(Steppenwolf/91899) Well, of course something like SWE is intended to equalize the g...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 09:22:00 -0500

Well, of course something like SWE is intended to equalize the gender disparity
in engineering, not to favor one group more than another going forward.

Similarly, I wouldn't have a big problem with an organization that served as an
advocate for men in child-custody disputes.

(MIKEY/91898) I was responding to this statement which seemed relevant to me:

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 07:24:00 -0500

I was responding to this statement which seemed relevant to me:

Or is it? If you have an organization that only includes men... yet privileges
helping men over others... then that really does become discriminatory, doesn't
it? Men get a leg up, but women don't?

(Peccavimus/91897) Way to ignore all the relevant arguments, MIKEY.

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 07:18:00 -0500

Way to ignore all the relevant arguments, MIKEY.

(MIKEY/91896) Here's another of those nasty, discriminatory single sex groups:...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 07:14:00 -0500

Here's another of those nasty, discriminatory single sex groups:  The Society
of Women Engineers (SWE), founded in 1950, is a not-for-profit educational and
service organization. SWE is the driving force that establishes engineering as
a highly desirable career aspiration for women. SWE empowers women to succeed
and advance in those aspirations and be recognized for their life-changing
contributions and achievements as engineers and leaders.
We should stamp out all such behavior!!!   *heavy sarcasm*

(Knight Of Shadows/91895) Wasn't saying that it was true. Was saying that there is a perc...

Knight Of Shadows@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 07:12:00 -0500

Wasn't saying that it was true.  Was saying that there is a perception of it
being true.  My take on it is that it's like any organization.  There will be
chapters where members try hard to do the right thing and there will be
chapters where they are more self-interested.  Such is the smae of
organizations.

(Feoh/91894) Helping others in need in your community is also a huge part of ...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 04:36:00 -0500

Helping others in need in your community is also a huge part of Freemasonry.

We do a *huge* amount of charitable giving, and that's to anyone in need.

(Steppenwolf/91893) Hmmph. I think only helping other freemasons but not others is i...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Mar 2011 04:32:00 -0500

Hmmph. I think only helping other freemasons but not others is itself unfair.
CONTRADICTION!

But that's neither here nor there.

Or is it? If you have an organization that only includes men... yet privileges
helping men over others... then that really does become discriminatory, doesn't
it? Men get a leg up, but women don't?

(Mean Mr Mustard/91890) Feminism was and is at its most relevant as a response to the so...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 19 Mar 2011 09:29:00 -0500

Feminism was and is at its most relevant as a response to the sort of
institutionalized discrimination and marginalization of women that has only in
the past few decades begun to decline in much of mainstream western society.

(Smoke Eater/91889) Feoh,

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 18:08:00 -0500

Feoh,
  Ask your friend what he thinks about Curves, the gym.

(-- anonymous -- <>/91888) Only some guys. Some of us pee sitting down too!

Fri, 01 Apr 2011 11:50:17 -0500

Only some guys.  Some of us pee sitting down too!

(WORF/91887) Eh, there would be more available bathrooms, thus the load would...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:18:00 -0500


Eh, there would be more available bathrooms, thus the load would be balanced
over a larger resource!

Average wait would come down.

Though, truth be told, if we went to full unisex, guys would still have a
bathroom advantage because they could shortcut to a urinal if they only
required #1. Women would be forced to wait for a stall regardless of #1 or #2.

(Feoh/91886) Worf: E-gads, then we'd all have to wait in line! :)

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 11:11:00 -0500

Worf: E-gads, then we'd all have to wait in line! :)

(WORF/91885) You'll see a truly gender blind society the day we all have unis...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:55:00 -0500


You'll see a truly gender blind society the day we all have unisex bathrooms.

(Steppenwolf/91884) It was a big theme in '70s feminism especially, and it's still a...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:48:00 -0500

It was a big theme in '70s feminism especially, and it's still an undercurrent
in a lot of feminist thought. The idea is pretty simple, really: as long as you
insist that the genders are different, then one group (probably the men) would
end up with more power. The only way to ensure that the groups are to be
treated equally is to make sure there is no discrimination whatsoever.

The problem for feminists, of course, is that they can't talk about how special
women are and at the same time insist on gender-blind equality.  Thus (and
correctly in my view) the shift to seeing differences and allowing both genders
to express them in their own ways.

(Feoh/91883) Absolutely. For instance I find the fact that for a long time m...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:40:00 -0500

Absolutely.  For instance I find the fact that for a long time male lawyers
used men's only clubs to gain an unfair advantage over their female
counterparts trying to break into the field reprehensible.

I can totally understand the cynicism, what I can't understand is a world view
that can't embrace the idea that organizations for women or men only are
inherently evil.

(Steppenwolf/91882) I think there's a difference between organizations that simply d...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:34:00 -0500

I think there's a difference between organizations that simply discriminate out
of tradition (not to mention sexism) and those who discriminate because there
exists a difference in the cultural discourse of genders and there is something
valuable to accepting all of those.

The first is bad, at least to my mind; the second is good. The problem is that
a whole bunch of people who discriminated for the first reason used the second
as an excuse, which explains a whole lot of suspicion on the part of people who
were discriminated against.

(Feoh/91881) I don't really think he's taking issue with a specific case of d...

Feoh@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Mar 2011 10:34:00 -0500

I don't really think he's taking issue with a specific case of discrimination,
it's more a matter of the fact that from his perspective, excluding people from
a group based on gender is immoral.  I had a version of this discussion on
Facebook and a number of folks (Though most of the others were women) came out
with similar opinions, so clearly he's not alone.

(Bodhi Dharma/91856) Yes, a broken clock is right twice a day.

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 18 Jan 2011 19:00:00 -0600

Yes, a broken clock is right twice a day.

(Lammam P Yrruf/91813) For the record, I said nor implied nothing about politics. I ju...

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:47:00 -0500

For the record, I said nor implied nothing about politics.  I just wanted to
know what he meant or was getting at.  Wanted to understand, and failing to
gather what was intended, I tried to ask how to engage and respond to Bodhi's
words.  It was an attempt to clarify, be a better listener, and figure out how
I could fruitfully engage with him.  Had /no/ idea that'd be taken as an
assault, and I'll do my best not to make that mistake again.

(Bodhi Dharma/91794) look, for some reason this is starting to go down a very bad roa...

Bodhi Dharma@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 22:19:00 -0500

look, for some reason this is starting to go down a very bad road towards a
string of personal attacks.
For my part in sending it down that road, I make a public apology.
Let's focus on the discussion topic and stop doing the ISCA bullshit.
Just because somebody disagrees doesn't mean it has to get personal.

((Unknown ISCABBS User)/91782) What if all 100 people kind of suck?

(Unknown ISCABBS User)@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 24 Aug 2009 20:47:00 -0500


What if all 100 people kind of suck?
We have 20 kind of sucky firefighters who are slightly better than the other
80 sucky candidates?