Bible And Christianity

(Vlad Tepes/158717) How do mute people go to confession and remain anonymous? Do the...

Vlad Tepes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 22 Feb 2012 12:02:00 -0600

How do mute people go to confession and remain anonymous? Do they have to
confess in writing?

(Pluck Duck/158716) Exactly as Faunus said.

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 21 Feb 2012 13:47:00 -0600

Exactly as Faunus said.

 Back in my hard core. bible-thumping fundamentalist days I remember the -very-
last time I walked in to a Family Book Store (formerly Zondervan's book store.)
I saw them selling "Christian Cocoa" next to the "Testa-mints" and I walked out
and consciously said I was never going back.  At the time, I wasn't sure why. 
I just knew something wasn't right.  I felt like they were absolutely
exploiting my faith, not helping me with it.


Now, of course, I see how much MORE of my evangelical christianity was really
the same sort of thing, but that was definitely a very powerful moment for me,
and maybe one of the first steps down the road that led me to where I am today,
spiritually.

(Faunus/158714) The kind of "Christian X" you're thinking of is a matter of comm...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 11:09:00 -0600


The kind of "Christian X" you're thinking of is a matter of commerce and
marketing.  There are stores you can go to ("Family Christian stores") that are
there to sell you Christian books.  Christian movies.  Christian music is
famous ("CCM") but that's a subset of this.  There are publishing/media
companies with specialties like this.  Zondervan publishing, for example.
There are social reasons people patronize these places: they know that their
worldview will not be challenged in what they would consider an unhealthy or
destructive direction; they know they can share these things with others of
their religious community and be considered to be building them up
spiritually...

I'm not saying there are no characteristics to these things that separate them
from other media outside of their coming from certain companies and being sold
in certain venues....  But I would say there are no *universal, defining*
characteristics of "Christian this-or-that" except for where you buy and sell
them.

(Gwynn/158713) I'd say that's about right. Take "The Girl who Loved Tom Gordon"...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:17:00 -0600

I'd say that's about right. Take "The Girl who Loved Tom Gordon", it's very
connected with God, but it's kind of, OK, this is what she's doing in this
situation. But you kind of get the impression that if she found out later she
had clinical depression, she'd go get some therapy, instead of assuming that if
she has Jesus, she doesn't have depression. Yes, that's an Evangelical thing
I've seen, if you have Jesus, you shouldn't have depression.

Or to take some of the contemporary Christian rock, sure it deals with
depression and all that, but it's rarely, if ever, "so then me and my friend
Bob talked it out and he really helped", it's all like, "then I suddenly
realized, Christ, you suffered way more than I ever will, you're awesome!" I'm
not suggesting it replaces human relationships with Christ entirely, as an
example, I mean there are songs that are thankful for a person, e.g. a spouse.
But those are usually, "hey God, thanks for giving me this person/bringing them
into my life." Any answers you get aren't "me and my spouse talked about it and
...." It's always, "we prayed". So I think, yeah, it largely replaces
interactions between people and people, and people and the world, with
interactions between people and Jesus.

(Lochner/158712) My aunt is an Evangelical Christian, and she's constantly sendin...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 17 Feb 2012 10:08:00 -0600


My aunt is an Evangelical Christian, and she's constantly sending us
"Christian" movies, which annoys the hell out of me.  This time she send
"Courageous."

But I was thinking - what makes a movie a "Christian" film?  Many of these
Christian films feature flawed characters who make mistakes/sin and attempt to
redeem themselves.  Many feature scenes involving churches, preachers, etc,
crises of faith, etc.  But this stuff all happens in other kinds of film.
Invoking Jesus and God is not unique to Christian cinema.

So what is it that converts a film from an ordinary movie that involves
elements of Christianity into a "Christian" film.  For example, virtually every
Steve King book/movie is heavily laden with overtones of Christian symbolism.
"From Dusk Till Dawn" involved in substantial part a preacher's crisis of
faith.

Reading the back cover of "Courageous" (which is a $26 DVD!! Jesus H....), it's
overtly a Christian film, I can tell just by reading the description, but I
cna't put my finger on what it is that makes it a Christian movie.  I think
it's that the film internalizes and normalizes Christianity, and presents it
not as an element of the characters, or a piece of storytelling, but it
actively messages Christianity is having all the answers, rather than simply
showing that the charaters believe that it does.

(Pluck Duck/158711) Dum duh dum dum dum duh dum dum dum duh dum dum dumb!

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 04:43:00 -0600

Dum duh dum dum dum duh dum dum dum duh dum dum dumb!

(DesCartes/158710) User to profile? [FULL PROFILE] (Faunus) -> Joseph Smith

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 14:12:00 -0600

User to profile? [FULL PROFILE] (Faunus) -> Joseph Smith
There is no user Joseph Smith on this BBS.

(Faunus/158709) If I had to guess who on this BBS would have studied "Reformed E...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 13:58:00 -0600


If I had to guess who on this BBS would have studied "Reformed Egyptian
Hieroglyphics" my guess would be Vanity.

I'm just sayin'.

(Peccavimus/158708) I had a similar experience, except it was Hebrew I read in colle...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 12:42:00 -0600

I had a similar experience, except it was Hebrew I read in college, not Greek.

(DesCartes/158707) (And, Hooligan, that wasn't my experience. I'd ask questions, th...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:07:00 -0600

(And, Hooligan, that wasn't my experience. I'd ask questions, they couldn't
answer them, but they wouldn't send somebody else. They'd try to get an answer
to what they thought my question was, and come back the following week with a
non-answer. I'd have loved to have been bumped up the ladder or something, but
that never happened.)

(DesCartes/158706) No, I mean you can't claim to have studied the Book of Mormon in...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:06:00 -0600

No, I mean you can't claim to have studied the Book of Mormon in the original
language.

(Hooligan/158705) Vanity:

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 10:05:00 -0600

Vanity:

If you do that with Mormons and are polite and friendly, they will usually keep
sending people gradually higher up the training/experience ladder.  It's a lot
of fun.  :)

(DesCartes/158704) See, that's where Mormons have an advantage.

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 08:28:00 -0600

See, that's where Mormons have an advantage.

(Vanity/158703) I just got back from chatting with a Jehovah's Witness at the fr...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 15 Feb 2012 06:10:00 -0600

     I just got back from chatting with a Jehovah's Witness at the front door.
A pleasant enough fellow, though with his fedora and long coat he looked rather
like a comic-book vampire.  I'm afraid I kept interrupting his spiel by taking
his Bible from him and doing off-the-cuff exegesis on his marked passages --
not altogether to the advantage of his argument.  At one point I noticed that
the translation seemed quite strange.  He asked if I were more familiar with
the King James or the Douay versions.  I explained that I'd studied the Bible
in the original in college.  Not quite grasping my point, he kept asking about
Bible versions I might have studied -- I presume so he could tout the
superiority of the Bible he was holding (the "New World" version, I believe). I
replied that I had studied the text he was citing IN GREEK.
     He left rather shortly thereafter.

(Danix/158702) Er, Christian Democrat movements came to be probably earlier, at...

Danix@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 09:27:00 -0600

Er, Christian Democrat movements came to be probably earlier, at least in Latin
America. Unfortunately, our current ruling party is one that has been
historically infested by those guys...

(Tom Brady/158701) Of course, the 80's Christian political movement was in response...

Tom Brady@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 05:00:00 -0600

Of course, the 80's Christian political movement was in response to the sexual
revolution, Roe V Wade, public school condom distribution, and a number of
other societal changes that the Catholic Church, if not Christianity at large,
was at odds with.

(Kena/158700) Somewhat pertinent to two of the past three threads: American Ch...

Kena@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 10:28:00 -0600

Somewhat pertinent to two of the past three threads: American Christianity has
taken on distinctly different hues since the 80's.  I lay this largely at the
feet of Ronal Reagan, Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell and Ralph Reed.  In the
70's, about the most pervasive "force" that "Christians" put forward was "Jesus
Freaks," something with which the GOP would have been loath to recognize in any
way, shape, size, or form.  I recall an interesting article (might have been in
George magazine?) discussing the rise of Christianity as a political movement,
and how it was -- at least for evangelicals -- largely accomplished by way of
the Christian Coalition (created by Robertson, run by Reed).  [Huh.  Upon
reading up on Jesus Freaks, a/k/a "The Jesus Movement"
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_movement#Legacy), it appears that, while
initially part of the counterculture, it was also significant in bringing youth
into the evangelical fold.]

The bottom line, though, is that Christianity of the 70's was more about
straigth-out religion than it is today.

(Tomte/158699) What do you all think of this?

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 19 Jan 2012 10:49:00 -0600

What do you all think of this?

Chart comes from a Zondervan book:  The American Church in Crisis, by David T.
Olson (Zondervan, 2008), p. 42
Growth or decline in percentage of population attending a church on any given
weekend from 2000-2005

State              All Christian Churches  Mainline  Catholic  Evangelical
1. Alabama        -0.6%                    -3.3%     +9.0%     -0.9%
2. Alaska         -7.9%                    -16.9%    -13.7%    -3.8%
3. Arizona        -7.3%                    -17.6%    -14.4%    +1.5%
4. Arkansas       -0.6%                    -7.1%     +9.6%     -0.4%
5. California     -5.3%                    -13.2%    -7.0%     -1.8%
6. Colorado       -3.3%                    -13.5%    -9.2%     +3.9%
7. Connecticut    -13.4%                   -14.8%    -17.4%    +0.4%
8. Delaware       -2.8%                    -6.4%     +1.2%     -4.1%
9. Florida        -8.6%                    -13.8%    -19.5%    -2.5%
10. Georgia       -4.8%                    -10.3%    -8.8%     -3.1%
11. Hawaii        -0.0%                    -10.2%    +0.3%     +2.8%
12. Idaho         -5.4%                    -16.9%    -8.2%     -0.5%
13. Illinois      -7.2%                    -10.4%    -11.4%    -1.2%
14. Indiana       -4.3%                    -10.3%    -12.2%    +1.6%
15. Iowa          -6.1%                    -10.0%    -10.6%    +2.7%
16. Kansas        -3.4%                    -8.5%     -10.1%    +3.8%
17. Kentucky      -1.7%                    -4.0%     -10.8%    +1.2%
18. Louisiana     -5.8%                    -6.0%     -12.1%    -0.6%
19. Maine         -11.9%                   -10.6%    -19.2%    +0.2%
20. Maryland      -4.5%                    -9.7%     -9.5%     +0.9%
21. Massachusetts -13.7%                   -9.7%     -19.7%    +4.8%
22. Michigan      -5.4%                    -9.3%     -9.3%     -0.6%
23. Minnesota     -6.1%                    -10.4%    -11.8%    +4.7%
24. Mississippi   -3.3%                    -9.9%     -0.5%     -2.3%
25. Missouri      -4.8%                    -8.3%     -13.2%    +0.1%
26. Montana       -3.7%                    -15.3%    -2.3%     +0.9%
27. Nebraska      -6.1%                    -10.3%    -4.9%     -4.1%
28. Nevada        -2.6%                    -21.8%    -4.2%     +4.5%
29. New Hampshire -17.5%                   -17.4%    -22.9%    +1.1%
30. New Jersey    -10.9%                   -7.8%     -17.2%    +2.3%
31. New Mexico    -11.4%                   -17.1%    -13.2%    -8.0%
32. New York      -10.7%                   -10.5%    -17.1%    +1.5%
33. North Carolina-3.8%                    -8.1%     +9.4%     -4.0%
34. North Dakota  -6.6%                    -10.1%    -6.3%     -1.8%
35. Ohio          -6.1%                    -10.1%    -12.3%    +1.4%
36. Oklahoma      -0.2%                    -8.6%     -1.7%     +1.7%
37. Oregon        -9.5%                    -14.1%    -23.6%    -2.9%
38. Pennsylvania  -7.4%                    -10.5%    -12.4%    +3.4%
39. Rhode Island  -14.1%                   -9.8%     -17.1%    +9.4%
40. South Carolina-2.5%                    -7.4%     +1.2%     -1.4%
41. South Dakota  -10.3%                   -10.7%    -20.4%    -0.1%
42. Tennessee     -1.9%                    -5.6%     -5.0%     -0.9%
43. Texas         -5.6%                    -12.1%    -8.3%     -2.6%
44. Utah          -3.1%                    -19.8%    -0.5%     +3.8%
45. Vermont       -9.8%                    -8.9%     -15.8%    +12.7%
46. Virginia      -3.0%                    -10.2%    -3.4%     +0.3%
47. Washington    -3.4%                    -14.7%    -6.3%     +1.6%
48. West Virginia -7.9%                    -11.0%    -27.9%    +0.9%
49. Wisconsin     -13.3%                   -8.4%     -22.6%    -1.1%
50. Wyoming       -8.5%                    -19.3%    -8.2%     -3.3%

Seems like this would have big implications down the road, empty churches, and
not just the mainline (whose decline is well discussed already) but
evangelicals too!

(Cerebus/158698) Wait you were surprised that evangelistic adults were jerks to a...

Cerebus@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 13:29:00 -0600

Wait you were surprised that evangelistic adults were jerks to a girl who
wanted a religious banner removed, even though said banner was against the law,
BIG SURPRISE. Even her state rep was ripping her.

(Gespalder/158697) I meant their reaction towards the girl.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 18:25:00 -0600

I meant their reaction towards the girl.

(Faunus/158696) Well, it was very Christian. That was exactly the problem. Ent...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 17:41:00 -0600

Well, it was very Christian.  That was exactly the problem.  Entirely too
Christian.  Insufficiently American.

(Gespalder/158695) These folks surely are not acting very Christian

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 15 Jan 2012 14:37:00 -0600

These folks surely are not acting very Christian

http://www.care2.com/causes/student-harassed-after-successfully-having-school-p
rayer-mural-removed.html

Student Harassed After Successfully Having School Prayer Mural Removed
by Robin Marty
January 13, 2012
11:30 pm

When high school student Jessica Ahlquist requested that her school remove a
giant mural in the cafeteria with a Christian prayer on it, telling the
administration that it made her uncomfortable and that it violated the
constitution, she likely didn't expect it to result in a long, drawn out court
battle.B  But school officials at Cranston West refused her, and next the
American Civil Liberties Union, making numerous public scenes in support of
leaving the mural as it was.

Yet it was the school board's public proselytizing that actually did them in,
as it was used as evidence proving that the mural was in fact intended to be a
Christian display, a no-no in a taxpayer funded public school.B  According to
the judge's ruling:

"The Cranston School Committee and its subcommittee held four open meetings to
consider the fate of the Mural. At those meetings a significantly lopsided
majority of the speakers spoke passionately, and in religious terms, in favor
of retaining the Prayer Mural. Various speakers read from the bible, spoke
about their personal religious convictions, threatened Plaintiff with damnation
on Judgment Day and suggested that she will go to hell. The atmosphere was such
that the Superintendent of Schools felt compelled to discuss his own religious
beliefs at length when he made his recommendation to the Committee that they
vote to retain the Prayer Mural.

"Similarly, five of the seven School Committee members expressed avowals of
their own religious beliefs at the meeting, including two of those who voted
against retaining the Mural," Lagueux continued. "This is precisely the sort of
'civic divisiveness' that the Supreme Court's Establishment Clause cases
repeatedly warn against. When focused on the Prayer Mural, the activities and
agenda of the Cranston School Committee became excessively entangled with
religion, exposing the Committee to a situation where a loud and passionate
majority encouraged it to vote to override the constitutional rights of a
minority."

The school board is still deciding whether to appeal the ruling.B  But of a
bigger concern is the attacks on the student, which have grown beyond
cyberbullying and now include outright threats of violence requiring police
intervention.

Yesterday, one Twitter user said "this girl honestly needs to be punched in the
face."

Another user bragged "your home address posted online i cant wait to hear about
you getting curb stomped you ****ing worthless c***."

And some users using their real names identified themselves as classmates of
Jessica Ahlquist, the plaintiff, one saying "definelty laying it down on this
athiest tomorrow anyone else?"

In a post on the blog RIFuture.org today, Steve Ahlquist, Ahlquist's uncle and
founder of the Humanists of Rhode Island, said "To the credit of the Cranston
School Committee, when I contacted them with my concerns, they were quick to
assure me that the Cranston Police have been investigating these threats since
last night, and that they are taking this issue very seriously."

Ironically, the now banned mural at one point implores "Our Heavenly Father" to
"Help us to be good sports and smile when we lose as well as when we win."B  If
only the mural's supporters could follow such sage advice.

(Tomte/158694) Gespalder> You should consider getting some of those scanned an...

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 11 Jan 2012 02:57:00 -0600

Gespalder>  You should consider getting some of those scanned and put them
online.

The link I posted is missing a few, including

Adam and Eve
Time to Run

and

Archie's Family Album

I'd love to have the full collection as ebooks.

I read most of the Archie's last night, and one of things that really struck me
about them was that in some ways the Christian right has gotten more
conservative since the 70s.  For instance many of the Archie comics struck
environmentalist notes, and most of the witnessing involved Christianity as
love (love being big back in the 70s).

It seems to have taken a harder edge since then, and I came away from reading
the comics thinking that they really weren't so bad.  Even though they take a
few swipes at evolution, etc. they are mainly about reading the Bible and the
love of Christ.

Gotta love "beach Jesus" in his blue swimming trunks and van, as well as Big
Ethel falling in love with the guy she's witnessing to! :-)

(Hooligan/158693) Vanity:

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 15:45:00 -0600

Vanity:

http://ncronline.org/blogs/ncr-today/five-observations-new-cardinals

It's a National Catholic Reporter analysis of the recent batch of cardinals.

(Gespalder/158692) Lets see, the ones I have (never got rid of them)

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 14:07:00 -0600

Lets see, the ones I have (never got rid of them)

Tom Landry and the Dallas Cowboys [1973]
Adam & Eve [1975]
Time To Run [1975]
Hello, I'm Johnny Cash [1976]
Archie's Clean Slate [1973]
Archie's Family Album [1978]

I may have a few others.
I have a comic called Primal Man? by Chick Publications

Here is the synopsis

Theme: Evolution

Frank Connelly is the producer of a television series based on evolution. But
his meeting with the Crusaders and their friend, Dr. Lind, will change his
opinion on what he's producing.

Dr. Lind spends time with the producer discussing various "facts" of evolution.

With proof presented to him, Frank Connelly is convinced evolution is not the
truth.

This comic proves that the "science" of evolution can only be labeled as
misleading theory. Many are being brainwashed in the schools and through the
media into believing the Bible is false and that evolution is a scientific
fact. Now it's time they are told the truth!

http://www.chick.com/catalog/comics/0106.asp

(Tomte/158691) Here's something a little different. Anyone remember "Spire Chr...

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 11:23:00 -0600

Here's something a little different.  Anyone remember "Spire Christian Comics"
as a kid?  Not the worst example of right-wing evanglical prostelytizing out
there by far, but still a little creepy.

My favorites of these were the Dallas Cowboys comic, life of Johnny Cash, and
also a series of Archie comics where everyone in Riverdale was Christian and
Betty especially was pretty much a mouthpiece for ideology.

Anyhoo, a ton of these are available as PDFs and I've been spending some time
reliving childhood memories:

http://www.carpsplace.com/spire/spire.htm

Enjoy!

(Faunus/158690) If this room scrolled more than once every few months I would fe...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 10 Jan 2012 03:31:00 -0600

If this room scrolled more than once every few months I would feel entitled to
complain about this random priest-prosecution spam from Gespalder.

(Gespalder/158689) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/9/2012

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 09 Jan 2012 13:58:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/9/2012

Priest accused of molestation set for release on bail

About 50 people have gathered outside the downtown jail in Sacramento awaiting
the bail release of the Rev. Uriel Ojeda, the Catholic priest who has been
accused of molesting a girl under 14 years old. Ojeda's attorney, Jesse Ortiz,
said that the reverend is scheduled to be released on bond sometime before 5
p.m. today.

(Faunus/158688) It ain't the Poughkeepsie Catholic Church!

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 14:42:00 -0600

It ain't the Poughkeepsie Catholic Church!

(Giraffe/158687) That's a lot of Italians.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 08:23:00 -0600

That's a lot of Italians.

(Peccavimus/158686) I like Lucian Muresan's solo work. When he was with Muresan and...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:26:00 -0600

I like Lucian Muresan's solo work.  When he was with Muresan and the Monks, I
felt that he was overshadowed by the bassist, so it's good that he's found a
venue where he's able to shine as a solo artist.

(Vanity/158685) Anybody have any thoughts on Pope Benedict's twenty-two new card...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 08 Jan 2012 07:18:00 -0600

   Anybody have any thoughts on Pope Benedict's twenty-two new cardinals? 
Almost all the current cardinals were appointees of John Paul II (Benedict
himself being among the very few that weren't).  This installation will be
Benedict's first chance to make a really lasting impression on the future of
the Church.
   They are:
1. Archbishop Fernando Filoni, Italian, prefect of the Vatican's Congregation
for the Evangelisation of Peoples.
2. Archbishop Manuel Monteiro de Castro, Portuguese, head of Vatican office
that deals with the sacrament of penance.
3. Archbishop Santos Abril y Castello, Spanish, archpriest of the Rome basilica
of Santa Maria Maggiore.
4. Archbishop Antonio Maria Veglio, Italian, head of the Vatican's Council for
Pastoral Care of Migrants.
5. Archbishop Giuseppe Bertello, governor of Vatican City
6. Archbishop Francesco Coccopalmerio, Italian, president of the Pontifical
Council for Legislative Texts.
7. Archbishop Joao Braz de Aviz, Brazilian, prefect of the Vatican's
Congregation for Consecrated Life.
8. Archbishop Edwin O'Brien, American, Grandmaster of the Equestrian Order of
the Holy Sepulchre in Jerusalem.
9. Archbishop Domenico Calcango, Italian, President of the Administration of
the Patrimony of the Holy See.
10. Archbishop Giuseppe Versaldi, Italian, president of the Vatican's
Prefecture for the Economic Affairs of the Holy See.
11. His Beatitude George Alencherry, Indian, major archbishop of the
Syro-Malabar rite in India
12. Archbishop Thomas Christopher Collins, Canadian, archbishop of Toronto.
13. Archbishop Dominik Duka, Czech, archbishop of Prague
14. Archbishop Willem Jacobus Eijk, Dutch, archbishop of Utrecht, Netherlands
15. Archbishop Giuseppe Betori, Italian, archbishop of Florence
16. Archbishop Timothy Michael Dolan, American, archbishop of New York
17. Archbishop Rainer Maria Woelki, German, archbishop of Berlin.
18. Archbishop John Tong Hon, Chinese, archbishop of Hong Kong.
Over 80 and therefore not eligible to enter a conclave:
1. His Beatitude Lucian Muresan, Romanian, major archbishop of Fagaras and Alba
Iulia in Romania.
2. Father Julien Ries, Belgian, professor emeritus of religious history at the
Catholic University of Louvain
3. Father Prosper Grech, Maltese, professor emeritus of various Italian
universities
4. Father Karl Becker, German, of the Gregorian University in Rome

(Peccavimus/158684) that's why heterosexuals shouldn't be allowed to be priests.

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 18:58:00 -0600

that's why heterosexuals shouldn't be allowed to be priests.

(Gespalder/158683) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/5/2012

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 05 Jan 2012 13:41:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 1/5/2012

DA: Sacramento priest admitted molesting girl

A deputy district attorney told a Sacramento Superior Court judge Thursday that
the Rev. Uriel Ojeda, a Catholic priest jailed on sex abuse charges, has
admitted to repeatedly molesting a teenaged parishioner.

(Gespalder/158682) And again women are held to a different standard in the Catholic...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 31 Dec 2011 15:30:00 -0600

And again women are held to a different standard in the Catholic Church

http://www.care2.com/causes/teacher-fired-from-catholic-school-for-using-artifi
cial-insemination.html

Teacher Fired From Catholic School for Using Artificial Insemination
        b"      by Annie Urban
        b"      December 30, 2011
        b"      11:15 pm
190 comments

Artificial insemination is incompatible with immaculate conception it seems.
Christa Dias, a technology coordinator at two Cincinnati Catholic schools, was
fired from her job after telling her employer that she was pregnant. Initially,
the school wanted to fire her for being single and pregnant. However, that is
against state and federal anti-discrimination laws, so they decided to fire her
for using artificial insemination, a "grave immoral" act that goes against
Catholic teachings.

Dias hasn't found a new job since being fired from the school in October 2010
and she is planning to sue the school for pregnancy discrimination and breach
of contract. The school, however, feels it is in the right. Dan Andriacco, the
spokesperson for the Archdiocese of Cincinnati told Cincinnati.com that Dias
"has a right to her opinion, but doesn't have a right to violate her
(employment) contract." That contract stipulates that she has to comply with
Catholic teachings, which includes not using artificial insemination.

According to CatholicCulture.org, "the Catholic Church teaches that among
humans artificial insemination constitutes such a violation of the dignity of
the person and the sanctity of marriage as to be contrary to the natural and
divine law."B  The explanation goes on to describe artificial insemination as a
form of adultery and to condemn the irresponsibility of donors fathering
children for whom they will not be responsible. Finally, it explains that:

Even if insemination could be artificially achieved with the husband's semen
properly collected (without masturbation) the papal teaching still points out
that any process that isolates the sacred act of human generation from the
beautiful and intimate conjugal union of the marriage act itself is
inconsistent with the holiness and intimate personalism of that
two-in-one-flesh union which alone is appropriate for the generation of a
child.

Interestingly, however, if a male employee at the school participated in
artificial insemination (thereby irresponsibly fathering children), he would
not necessarily be held to the same standard as Dias because it could go
undetected. Women who go against "Catholic teachings" are unfairly punished in
this regard because their pregnancy is a visible sign. This is a key argument
in Dias' lawsuit.

Rev. James Kiffmeyer, the administrator who fired Dias, has run into some
problems with "Catholic teachings' himself. According to Jezebel:

Rev. James Kiffermeyer, was himself suspended in 2002 after allegations arose
that he engaged in sexual misconduct with two male high school students. He was
reinstated in 2006. The archdiocese of Cincinnati hasn't escaped the sex
scandal that's engulfed the Catholic Church over the last decade or so, either;
in 2003, the archdiocese pled no contest to charges they ignored sexual abuse
of boys by clergy in the 1980's and 90's. And the two priests alleged to have
engaged in the abuse were suspended like Kiffermeyer, not fired as Dias was
fired.

A Catholic male official is simply suspended over sexual abuse allegations, but
a female teacher is fired for artificial insemination. The Catholic Church
works in perplexing ways sometimes.

Despite losing her job, Christa Dias doesn't regret her decision at all. She
loves children and always wanted to have a baby. She told Cincinnati.com that
"she's an amazing gift from God. She's amazing and wonderful. I would do it all
over again for her."

Sign the petition telling the administrator who fired Dias to resign.

(Gespalder/158681) 2 Alarm Fire at Westport Presbyterian Church in Kansas City, MO

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 29 Dec 2011 13:18:00 -0600

2 Alarm Fire at Westport Presbyterian Church in Kansas City, MO
This is an historic church
http://westportpresbyterian.org/ourhistory.html

(Pluck Duck/158680) Christmas tradition #24, check. :-)

Pluck Duck@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 26 Dec 2011 09:48:00 -0600

Christmas tradition #24, check. :-)

(Vlad Tepes/158679) i've never heard of that story.

Vlad Tepes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 26 Dec 2011 05:40:00 -0600

i've never heard of that story.

(DesCartes/158678) I had just logged in to look for that, too.

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 24 Dec 2011 22:13:00 -0600

I had just logged in to look for that, too.

(Gespalder/158677) Dec 25, 2009 10:08 from Thobby

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 24 Dec 2011 19:01:00 -0600

Dec 25, 2009 10:08 from Thobby
Eddi's Service
by Rudyard Kipling

Eddi, priest of St. Wilfrid,
In his chapel at Manhood End,
Ordered a midnight service
For such as cared to attend.

But the Saxons were keeping Christmas,
And the night was stormy as well,
Nobody came to service,
Though Eddi rang the bell.

'Wicked weather for walking,'
Said Eddi of Manhood End,
'But I must go on with the service
For such as care to attend.'

The altar-lamps were lighted --
An old marsh-donkey came,
Bold as a guest invited,
And stared at the guttering flame.

The storm beat on at the windows;
The water splashed on the floor;
And a wet, yoke-weary bullock
Pushed in through the open door.

'How do I know what is greatest?
 How do I know what is least?
 That is my Father's business,'
Said Eddi, Wilfrid's priest.

'But -- three are gathered together --
 Listen to me, and attend!
 I bring good news, my brethren!'
 Said Eddi of Manhood End.

And he told the ox of a manger
And a stall in Bethlehem.
And he spoke to the ass of a rider
That rode to Jerusalem.

They steamed and dripped in the chancel;
They listened and never stirred,
While, just as though they were bishops,
Eddi preached them the Word.

Till the gale blew off on the marshes,
And the windows showed the day,
And the ox and the ass together
Wheeled and clattered away.

And when the Saxons mocked him,
Said Eddi of Manhood End,
'I dare not shut His chapel
 On such as care to attend.'


[Bible And Christianity> msg #156501

(Faunus/158676) checking for Eddi's Service :)

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 24 Dec 2011 18:55:00 -0600


*checking for Eddi's Service*  :)

*waiting patiently*

(DesCartes/158675) An earlier story about NPR about the miracle, and the investigat...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:44:00 -0600

An earlier story about NPR about the miracle, and the investigation of it:
http://www.npr.org/2011/04/22/135121360/a-boy-an-injury-a-recovery-a-miracle

(DesCartes/158674) A boy was miraculously cured of an infection of a flesh-eating b...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:42:00 -0600

A boy was miraculously cured of an infection of a flesh-eating bacteria, Strep
A. The cure coincided with somebody placing a relic associated with Bl. Kateri
on his pillow.
http://www.npr.org/2011/12/20/143981760/vatican-declares-boys-recovery-a-miracl
e

(Peccavimus/158673) What was the miracle?

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:37:00 -0600

What was the miracle?

(DesCartes/158672) Recently, a miracle has been ascribed to the intercession of Bl....

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 06:34:00 -0600

Recently, a miracle has been ascribed to the intercession of Bl. Kateri
Tekakwitha. With this miracle, her cause for sainthood should progress, and the
Catholic Church should soon be canonizing her first Native American saint. (I
think. Would Juan Diego be considered a Native American? I'm pretty sure he was
an Aztec convert. I usually see her referred to as the first Native American to
be considered for sainthood, though.)

(Ebauchon/158671) John and Charles Wesley started in England, but they really deve...

Ebauchon@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 22:03:00 -0600

John and Charles Wesley started in England, but they really developed their
following in the southern US

(Gwynn/158669) Weird, I always thought the Methodists went back to Europe. Show...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:55:00 -0600

Weird, I always thought the Methodists went back to Europe. Shows what I know.

(Ebauchon/158668) I can be of a little assistance. Both my parents were ordained M...

Ebauchon@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 20:06:00 -0600

I can be of a little assistance. Both my parents were ordained Methodist
ministers...as were a grandfather and two uncles. I like to say there is
Methodism to my madness. As I was growing up, my father served churches and my
mother was a social worker. She would fill in for other Methodist ministers on
Sundays when they were out of town.

Descartes' post is a good one to go on. However, there are some things
particular to the Methodist church. It developed in the mountains of North
Carolina and Georgia with a tradition of a "circuit rider," a minister who rode
his horse from small town to small small town to provide pastoral services to a
number of communities. That tradition still exists in many rural areas (minus
the horse). The community of churches served by a pastor is called a "charge."
In the 1960's and 70's, my father served as many as 6 small churches at the
same time. Each church would have Sunday school every Sunday, but would only
have "preaching" every other Sunday, or in once case, only once a month. More
common now is a "two point" charge in which the pastor has two churches. In
that case, both will have preaching every Sunday. My family's home church in NC
has had tremendous growth over the last 20 years and has gone from being part
of a four point charge to being a single point charge with its own pastor.

In general, the wives (or husbands) of Methodists ministers are not extremely
visible figures in the churches their spouses serve. They participate in a lot
of the church activities as would any other church member. They rarely take
leadership roles and are very leary of any perception of conflict of interest.
However, there are some situations I know of where clergy couples (both
ordained) serve as co-pastors.

Only the largest Methodist churches would have assistant pastors.

Fell free to ask me any questions you would like in Mail>. However, my info
might be a little dated as my father retired in 1979 and I have been an
Episcopalian since college.

(Tomte/158667) In the small conservative Lutheran denomination I was raised in,...

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 15:46:00 -0600

In the small conservative Lutheran denomination I was raised in, being pastor's
wife was practically a ministry onto itself as she was expected to lead the
women and "be there" for parishoners in a variety of ways.

One of my biggest shocks about being Episcopalian was that absolutely nothing
was expected of the pastor's spouse in any way that I could tell.  Often clergy
spouses have entirely separate lives from the life of the parish.

(Aightball/158666) Sounds like a busy person! I picked Methodist because my friend ...

Aightball@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:29:00 -0600

Sounds like a busy person! I picked Methodist because my friend is Methodist
and they seem very laid back and open-minded. I know I can write them that way
as well, but I like to be as close to the real thing as possible.

I'll definitely research commities and stuff and see what I can learn there. I
never realized these people were so busy and had so much to do. In the book, it
will be a larger community (think Omaha-sized), so probably a bigger church as
well.

(Giraffe/158665) Pastors are also typically busy with various committees, within ...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:18:00 -0600

Pastors are also typically busy with various committees, within the local
church, the larger church organization -- in the United Methodist Church this
means the regional conference and more local disricts, and in community
organizations and ministerial associations. There may be business that is
conducted with the Bishop. There may also be the duties of an office manager --
hiring staff or contractors and keeping the bills paid, etc. And of course
conducting funerals and weddings. And remember a Methodist pastor might have a
wife or a husband. You never can tell with Methodists!

(DesCartes/158664) It would depend on the size of the church. For a small church, t...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 14:03:00 -0600

It would depend on the size of the church. For a small church, there probably
won't be associate pastors. There may be volunteers to take on those roles,
though. But a small church may not have a youth ministry. A typical suburban
mainline Protestant church would probably have a big enough congregation to
have a pastor and one or two other full-time or part-time employees (along with
perhaps a secretary and a janitor or something).

Also, in a Protestant church, typically the pastor is hired by some sort of
board on the church (a board of deacons, or something--check terminology for
Methodists), so he might meet with them weekly or so, or possibly spend a good
bit of social time with them so that he stays on their good side.  There may be
some internal politics involved that he might have to play with or tread
carefully about, depending on the pastor and the church.  (This would
particularly be true of a pastor who is a little bit edgier or unorthodox in
theology, or who might be prone to outlandish statements in sermons.)

If it's a rural church or a very small church, it's likely that the pastor is
not full-time (or possibly not paid at all), and during the week, has to work
at another job to support himself.

(Hessed/158663) Aightball> I don't have time to answer this right now, but my mo...

Hessed@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:57:00 -0600

Aightball> I don't have time to answer this right now, but my mother is a
pastor in a denomination similar to the Methodists. Also, I went to seminary
and have many minister friends. So remind me, and I will give you some input.

(Aightball/158662) Thanks for the response! I vaguely remember 7th Heaven (might've...

Aightball@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:17:00 -0600

Thanks for the response! I vaguely remember 7th Heaven (might've even watched
it once) so might check into that.

That will definitely help me with my writing. I don't know yet what role the
wife plays (details are still being hashed out), but I didn't realize they had
associate pastors as well. I will have to look into that and see what I can
learn there. I might just have her be a Sunday school person/woman's group sort
of thing...things to think about. Thanks again!

(DesCartes/158661) Again, not Methodist, but check out some episodes of 7th Heaven,...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 12:03:00 -0600

Again, not Methodist, but check out some episodes of 7th Heaven, especially
early seasons. It's a TV show (it lasted 9 years or so?) about the family of a
pastor. I personally haven't seen it, so I don't know how much it shows of the
father's work.

(DesCartes/158660) I'm Catholic, so I might not know exactly what happens like this...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:52:00 -0600

I'm Catholic, so I might not know exactly what happens like this, but I'd
imagine this to be the case:

The minister will probably be busy all day Sunday with setting up the worship,
supervising Sunday School (if not teaching), and social obligations with
parishoners. (This is if he is the pastor. If he's an associate pastor--a youth
group leader, for example--it's probably the same, except that his duties would
be more focused.)
Saturday, he may be able to take off (or finish writing his sermon). There may
be some minor duties setting up for worship on Saturday (especially if the
service is early Sunday), but probably nothing heavy. I'd expect him to be a
tthe church, but not for a long period of time--maybe a couple of hours in the
afternoon.
During the week, a full-time pastor is probably visiting parishoners
(especially sick and home-bound), reading and preparing for his homily, making
social calls to important families in the congregation, doing light office work
(writing letters (or e-mail, now) to people, responding to requests, and so on)
and probably has some "office hours" or times when people can drop in and see
him. Times that he's just available. He might also do some counseling or
spiritual advising. Many churches have Wednesday night services (more Baptist
than Methodist, but still possible), and he may also do work preparing for that
and attending that. And then also time spent in prayer and studying the Bible.

It's also advisable for full-time ministers to make sure they take a day off,
since weekends are their busy days. He may take Monday off or Friday off or
something to give him some personal time.

A pastor's wife is often (but not necessarily) involved in the ministry, too.
She may be involved in children's Sunday School or daycare during the services,
or in forming a women's group to do womanly things (making crafts and such for
poor or sick, cooking meals for sick or people who have just lost a loved one,
etc.). In a more liberal church, she may also be an associate pastor and may
occasionally give sermons, or have more responsibilities, but in a more
conservative church, she's unlikely to have any authority over men--just women
and children.  I don't think she's obligated to help him, per se, but often the
ministry is a team experience where they support each other and both have
responsibilities.

(Aightball/158659) I was directed here, so if my question is off topic, please re-d...

Aightball@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 11:47:00 -0600

I was directed here, so if my question is off topic, please re-direct.

I am doing some research for a book I'm writing and wonder: what are the basic
duties of a Methodist Minister? Is the minister likely to be engaged at church
in some fasion most/all weekends? What do they do outside of give the church
service? Also, what would the pastor's wife do? Is she obligated to the church
as well or does she get to chose how much she does for the church?

(Lammam P Yrruf/158658) Nope. This passes for "continuing discussion" in his mind.

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:12:00 -0600

Nope.  This passes for "continuing discussion" in his mind.

(DesCartes/158657) Is this a different person than the one you posted about in the ...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 10:35:00 -0600

Is this a different person than the one you posted about in the post
immediately prior?

(Gespalder/158656) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/2/2011

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 02 Dec 2011 18:52:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/2/2011

Priest arraigned on 7 counts of child molestation

A Catholic priest beloved by churchgoers in Woodland was arraigned this
afternoon in Sacramento on seven counts of child molestation.

(Gespalder/158655) SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/1/2011

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 01 Dec 2011 15:09:00 -0600

SACBEE BREAKING NEWS ALERT B; 12/1/2011

Priest booked into Sacramento jail on suspicion of child molestation

The Rev. Uriel Ojeda, one of the youngest priests in the Sacramento Catholic
Diocese, has surrendered to authorities and been placed under arrest after a
complaints to the diocese earlier in the week of alleged child molestations.

(Hooligan/158654) It does matter to ecumenism though - ICEL and CCT were usually v...

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:46:00 -0600

It does matter to ecumenism though - ICEL and CCT were usually very close in
language (and not accidentally so, as the groups were in close communication
and aimed at arriving at the same translations).

(Hooligan/158653) I have been too busy to come back and retract, but I realized at...

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 14:44:00 -0600

I have been too busy to come back and retract, but I realized at some point
that when I said ICEL I really meant the CCT (the Consultation on Common Texts)
and I was just plain wrong.  Sorry.

(Giraffe/158652) Stephen Colbert reports on the new Catholic liturgy, inter alia.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 10:35:00 -0600

Stephen Colbert reports on the new Catholic liturgy, inter alia.

"Really? Consubstantial? What the hell does that mean? We're trying to get into
 heaven here, not take the SAT's. And for the record, Consubstantial is now
Istanbul."

Watch "Yahweh or No Way":   http://tinyurl.com/7c4h3hk

(Giraffe/158651) Hooligan: It would be interesting to hear why you think ICEL is ...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 03:39:00 -0600

Hooligan: It would be interesting to hear why you think ICEL is an ecumenical
effort. Everything I can find about ICEL, including their own website
(icelweb.org), indicates that it is a body of the RCC for the purpose of
standardizing liturgies for the English-speaking Catholic Conferences. If other
denominations use ICEL translations, I'm sure they're fine with that, but it
doesn't appear that ecumenism is or was an important aspect of their work. All
the representatives on the commission are Catholic bishops and archbishops. No
Anglicans or Orthodox or Protestants sit on the commission. Was that ever the
case?

(Vlad Tepes/158650) i don't like changing from I to We. that removes the community i...

Vlad Tepes@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 30 Nov 2011 01:09:00 -0600

i don't like changing from I to We. that removes the community in favour of the
individual, which seems counter to the idea of Church.

(DesCartes/158649) Checking translations on wikipedia, the new translation is close...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 11:42:00 -0600

Checking translations on wikipedia, the new translation is closer to the Book
of Common Prayer translation than the old translation was. Which is the same
version that the Presbyterians use (according to wikipedia), and appears to be
the same as the Lutheran version. (Or close enough--certainly closer than the
old version was.) The biggest changes, from what I see, are that the old
translation turned one long sentence into three sentences (instead of and... it
re-started the sentence). It replaces "the dead" (he descended to the dead)
with "hell" and "seated at the right hand of the Father" changes to "...at the
right hand of God the Father almighty." Each of these changes is present in the
old BCP, although some gramatical stuff (dead vs. died, seated vs. sitteth) is
different.

(Hooligan/158648) How can they back away from ICEL translations of (say) the Creed...

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:56:00 -0600

How can they back away from ICEL translations of (say) the Creed when the ICEL
was started by the Catholic magisterium to supply a common English translation
of the creed for use in all denominations?  It was a Catholic-sponsored
ecumenical endeavor.  Maybe the big headline in this is not that they changed
the English of the mass, but that the RCC abandoned the concept of ecumenical
translation.

I hadn't realized that they were changing the Creed, which is an ICEL text. 
That's a fairly big deal.

(Gwynn/158647) TB:

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:20:00 -0600

TB:

You might be doing this already, but in case you're not, a huge aide to
memorization, I've found, is actually saying the thing out loud. That's not
meant to be as stupidly obvious as it sounds.

We had an assignment for a class once, in religious studies as it happens,
where we had to pick a two or three line quote, and specifically say it out
loud so many times a day to memorize it. It was honestly kind of a little
creepy at first, made me think of brainwashing, but it really helped with
memorization, far more than rereading it a bunch of times or reciting it
mentally. "The best revenge is not to be like them". It's still stuck with me
obviously, it's from Marcus Aurelius, another translation is "The best kind of
revenge is, not to become like unto them."

(Tom Brady/158646) Yep... they have all the new translations side by side at

Tom Brady@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:24:00 -0600

Yep... they have all the new translations side by side at
http://old.usccb.org/romanmissal/examples.shtml

I quite often participate in group rosaries with the Knights, so I'm sure the
next one will be fun... best to get the new version down pat.

(DesCartes/158644) It's just changes to the Missal. It doesn't mean you have to cha...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 10:12:00 -0600

It's just changes to the Missal. It doesn't mean you have to change the prayer
when you pray the Rosary, if you don't want. (Me, I get mixed up which version
of the Doxology to use. I'm used to the one from the Liturgy of the Hours, so
when I pray the Rosary with others, I trip over the different version of that
prayer.) Of course, if you're praying with others, I guess you should agree on
which version to use, and you might as use the one you need to be familiar
with.

Did the Apostle's Creed change? I know the Nicene Creed did.

(Tom Brady/158643) Oh yeah, forgot also that they went and changed the Apostle's Cr...

Tom Brady@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:58:00 -0600

Oh yeah, forgot also that they went and changed the Apostle's Creed... which
means busting out a cheat sheet to say a rosary.  Luckily they didn't change
the Lord's Prayer.  Of course I still say "blessed art thou amongst women"
instead of the more modern version.

(Tom Brady/158642) I like some of it, other parts just seem odd. But that's to be ...

Tom Brady@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:49:00 -0600

I like some of it, other parts just seem odd.  But that's to be expected when
something you've gotten so accustomed to is changed.

I like the replacement of "We" with "I"... definitely seems like more of a
profession of an individual's faith as opposed to group-speak.

"And also with your spirit" is going to take some getting used to for me.

What's even more fun is doing Knights of Columbus Honor Guard service for
masses.  We can't hold cue cards when serving, so the memorization of new
Nicene creed, responses, etc is challenging.

(DesCartes/158641) It sounded a bit old-fashioned to me. Which may have been what w...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:53:00 -0600

It sounded a bit old-fashioned to me. Which may have been what was intended. It
will take some getting used to. (And we had the Rite of Acceptance for RCIA, so
we didn't recite the Creed.)

(Kyoti/158640) Curious what others think of the new Catholic Mass translation.....

Kyoti@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 09:40:00 -0600

Curious what others think of the new Catholic Mass translation...

(Vanity/158639) There are those Christians who, regardless of their theological

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 03:34:00 -0600

    There are those Christians who, regardless of their theological
identification, don't behave in ways that would seem to be consistent with the
certain knowledge that the Determiner of their Eternal Destiny is scrutinizing
their every move.  One might take that as evidence that 'deep down inside' they
don't believe in God; though it would also be consistent with a belief that
they can hide their activities from God, or else that God doesn't really care
about what people do.

(Peccavimus/158638) Oh, atheists have from time to time accused me of not really bel...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:34:00 -0600

Oh, atheists have from time to time accused me of not really believing what I
believe.  But then, my beliefs are farther outside the mainstream than
Christianity.

(DesCartes/158637) There are no theists after death?

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:18:00 -0600

There are no theists after death?
I haven't heard anybody express that, but it might work.

(Steppenwolf/158636) Believing atheists>

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 17:05:00 -0600

Believing atheists>

Gwynn summed up my point nearly perfectly. That's part of the genesis of the
idea behind "There are no atheists in foxholes," isn't it? The idea that while
atheists may rationally not believe in God, on an emotional level (and thus a
truer one), we do.

I haven't seen atheists argue exactly the converse, though I don't doubt it
happens. But I suspect it's less likely, for two reasons. 1) The experience of
people truly believing really stupid ideas is well-known; and 2) there's no
parallel to having an omniscient, omnipresent God in atheism. That is,
nonexistence isn't quite as pressing on one's understanding as existence.

What I DO see atheists arguing is against individual points: that is, that
believers can't really believe their arguments, even if they could believe
their overall points.

(Giraffe/158635) That's profoundly sad, Faunus. Holding you and your family in th...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 01:57:00 -0600

That's profoundly sad, Faunus. Holding you and your family in the Light.

(DesCartes/158634) I'll wait to reserve my judgement. Some of it, I think I'll prob...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:58:00 -0600

I'll wait to reserve my judgement. Some of it, I think I'll probably like (the
more literal translation of maxima mea culpa, for example). I don't have
problems with words such as consubstantial, although I can see why other
swould. I think I'd prefer "things seen and unseen" in the Creed vs. "things
visible and invisible." Invisibility has too much of a connotation of a super
hero, or something. "And with your spirit" sounds awkward to me now, but it
will probably grow on me. I'll figure out what else jumps out at me when I go
to Mass tomorrow.

(Hooligan/158633) And there was little rejoicing... (From what I've heard about pr...

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:55:00 -0600

And there was little rejoicing... (From what I've heard about preliminary
reception of the new translation).

(DesCartes/158632) Happy New Year!

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:54:00 -0600

Happy New Year!
With the begining of this new liturgical year, the Catholic Church will start
using the new English translation of the Roman Missal.

(Faunus/158631) We're well provided for right now. Thank you.

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:46:00 -0600

We're well provided for right now.  Thank you.

I'll post details about memorial as I have them.

Actually one thing --if you have any pictures with her in them and any
information about when they were taken maybe you could email me at
edheil@fastmail.fm.

(DesCartes/158630) I'm sorry to hear about her.

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:08:00 -0600

I'm sorry to hear about her.
Is there something we can do?

(Hooligan/158629) My prayers for Faunus and Allegra and family.

Hooligan@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 10:55:00 -0600

My prayers for Faunus and Allegra and family.

(Gwynn/158628) I think that's what Step's getting at yes, but hopefully he'll e...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:43:00 -0600

I think that's what Step's getting at yes, but hopefully he'll explain it too.
But I think there are Christians who feel that God's existence is so obviously
true that, in their heart of hearts, atheists know it, but they're just kind of
willfully refusing to admit it. To be fair, some atheists return the favor,
e.g. the evidence against God/your religion/whatever is so blindingly obvious
that you're remaining willfully ignorant of that fact to maintain your
delusional belief.

Both sides feel that, once the case is made for their side, you'll believe, if
you're a right-thinking human being. It's why I personally find one of the
scariest statements ever was somebody saying "I wish everybody in the world
would learn to think for themselves". Because the unstated corollary to that
is, they sure haven't been up till now, and if they did, they'd agree with me
because I'm obviously correct.

(Vanity/158627) So some Christians imagine that atheists simultaneously believe ...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:31:00 -0600

   So some Christians imagine that atheists simultaneously believe and don't
believe in God?

(Steppenwolf/158626) All true, Vanity, but I imagine many Christians envision atheism...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 08:08:00 -0600


All true, Vanity, but I imagine many Christians envision atheism as a  refusal
to admit the existence of God.
Wrongly, but with certain kinds of faith it would make sense.

(Vanity/158625) I think in order to defy God, you would have to believe in God...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 25 Nov 2011 18:44:00 -0600

   I think in order to *defy* God, you would have to believe in God.  It's sort
of like renouncing your citizenship; if you want to abandon your allegiance to
the United States of America and become, say, British or French, you actually
have to admit that (a) there is such a place as the United States and (b) you
are a citizen of it.  If you thought that the United States was a fictional
country, like Narnia, you wouldn't be likely to renounce your 'Narnian'
citizenship, because you wouldn't believe in Narnia or in being a citizen or
subject of that country.
   "Defy" in its original sense meant something very like renouncing
citizenship, by the way -- it referred to the act of a feudal vassal
voluntarily breaking the ties that bound him to his liege lord -- usually on
the pretext that his lord had somehow violated his side of the implicit bargain
of vassalage -- and either becoming an independent lord, owing no vassalage to
anybody, or taking vassalage under a different liege.  But to defy (desfier,
to "disfaith" or renounce one's faith or allegiance to someone) your lord you
had to admit that, hitherto you *had* been his vassal.
    Now there may well be some 'atheists' for whom atheism isn't so much a
disbelief in God as a kind of personal quarrel with Him.  Perhaps such a person
could 'defy' God. But merely proclaiming 'God doesn't exist' is not defiance. 
If God really exists, in the same way that the United States of America exists,
then denying the existence of God could be no more than a bizarre delusion,
perhaps not incapacitating but nonetheless evidence of a sharp break with
reality.  Delusional madness is not 'defiance'.  On the other hand, if God does
not exist, then there is nobody to 'defy'.  And if it is an open question
whether God exists or not, then we can hardly assume a malicious motivation for
one person's honest opinion on the subject.
   To defy God, you have to admit that there is such a person, or at least some
person who shares enough characteristics with the common view of God to make
the identification plausible (I'm afraid that lets out the God of the
theologians!). And then you have to turn around and say, 'Well, there is this
almighty, all-knowing Creator of the Universe, but, you know, he's not the boss
of me."  (You can imagine prayers ending: "God Almighty, Lord of Heaven and
Earth, You're not the boss of me.")  *That* would be defiance.

(Gwynn/158624) This one's for Hooligan. I quote the inexplicable Daniel Higgs, ...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 23 Nov 2011 19:43:00 -0600

This one's for Hooligan. I quote the inexplicable Daniel Higgs, track 5, side
1, from Devotional Songs, it's untitled. He's quoting the Bible in the
beginning, at least I assume it's the Bible, but I'll give the quote since I
don't know if he's reading or paraphrasing or what. Bible passage is in quotes,
the rest is him.

"Is a candle brought to be put under a bushel, or under a bed, and not to set
on a candlestick? For there is nothing hid which shall not be manifested,
neither was anything kept secret but that it should come abroad. If any man
have ears to hear, let him hear. Take heed what ye hear. With what measure ye
meet it shall be measured to you. And unto you that hear shall more be given.
For he that hath, shall be given, and he that hath not, for him shall be taken
even that which he hath."

(acoustic guitar behind speech) That is some hard language. That's a whole life
right there. You could sacrifice your whole life into that passage. You could
enter that passage. You can enter, you can cross the threshhold through that
passage words. When you come out, when you cross over and come out on the other
side, you might be standin' right behind yourself. (laughter? I'm not sure what
sound he's making)

(Faunus/158623) Nah, it's all good. I imagine all debates between Christians an...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 08:14:00 -0600

Nah, it's all good.  I imagine all debates between Christians and Atheists
sound pretty much the same.

(Uncle Jed/158622) If you're interested in knowing what was said at the debate, I c...

Uncle Jed@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 07:47:00 -0600

If you're interested in knowing what was said at the debate, I can give you a
link to the place where you can order the DVD. Unfortunately it's $15. I was
going to record the auido at home since they were live streaming, but then
found out that you had to pay to have it streamed as well. If you just want to
see the promo website with a little intro vid, go here: debatechristianity.net.
If you're insterested in the DVD, go to http://churchforallnations.com/store/in
dex.php?route=product/product&product_id=86
You can judge for yourself whether or not he was defying God.
One thing I do have, by the way, is the audio from the Christian debater
speaking to our church the night before the debate. If you want that, just let
me know and I'll set up a download for you on my ftp server.

(Gwynn/158621) Well, that's why I said it can be little things. This will sort ...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:30:00 -0600

Well, that's why I said it can be little things. This will sort of head into
Spiritual territory, but I'll try to keep the comparison to a minimum. I want
to talk about the experience I mentioned, the "ah ha" moment.

To sum up the story of Susannah, if you haven't read it, Susannah is like
totally smokin' hot, and a couple of men in the town go, "we totally wanna do
it with you, let us or we'll get you in trouble with the town elders". She
refuses, so they go to the town elders and go "dudes, she totally came to us
under this tree and said, 'let's totally do it OMG!' We said, 'no way girl,
you're married!'" So the elders go, "ah ha, we know what that is, adultery, put
her to death!" Then the spirit of the Lord comes upon Daniel, and he says,
"hey, hang on just a sec guys, let me ask these guys a couple questions,
separate like".

So Daniel asks the first guy "hey so she totally wanted to do it with you and
it happened in a garden huh? OK, I think I got it straight. Oh ... just ....
one more thing sir. I was just wonderin', what kind of tree were you sitting
under when this happened?" "Oh it was a cypress!" Well Daniel does the same
thing with the other guy, and naturally the other guy says it's a fig tree, and
she gets saved from death. Daniel says to each of them "you've informed against
yourselves", basically.

OK, so you're saying, big deal, this is basic police stuff. But the interesting
thing is how he got this solution, it was given to him by God, specifically
"the spirit of The Lord" came upon Daniel. Now that's important because of how
we talk about that "ah ha moment" today. You'll hear things about the
subconscious and all working on the problem. But for me, I really do have that
experience of outsideness. It doesn't feel like I'm working on it and I've
solved it, or that the answers bubbling up from the depths of my mind, it
literally does feel like something's smacked me upside the mind from out there
somewhere.

Here's where we get into Spiritual a bit. Lots of modern talk is of the self.
You get a lot of neopagans for instance who talk about how a tarot reading is
just revealing the answers you already know, you have all the wisdom inside of
you that you need, you just have to access it, Etc. The gods are archetypes,
it's all reflections of you, it's all this kind of big code to get you at
this stuff that's hidden away inside of you, but you totally have it and
know it all already. Now me, I don't know who said this, but I go with, let's
reason from the known to the unknown.

Does this idea work anywhere else? If I suddenly decide, hey I want to build a
house, do I just have to introspect properly, and suddenly I'll know just how
to build a house? Nope. I'd better go learn from people who've done it, I'd
better go get some experience with tools, and so on. I know damn well I don't
have the knowledge, or aptitude, to build a house. So if I know I can't do
everything in the one domain, why should I assume that in the
spiritual/magical/religious domain I can do everything? Do I have that
potential? Sure, but I have the potential to do lots of thingsright here,
paint, play basketball, drive, build a house, cook, Etc. Doesn't mean I'll
necessarily be good at any of them.

Let's suppose I can do something, play basketball, divine the future, whatever,
all by myself. Again, it can't be all ME, because that implies that it's all
the same, and it's not true. If it's all ME, put me on a basketball court or in
some quicksand, and I should be able to play basketball equally well. My point
here is that even if we say, well that doesn't lead to spirits or god or
whatever, it STILL can't be all the self because you have to take outside
factors into account.

You might be thinking though, well but the "ah ha moment", that's all pretty
internal. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Given the points just mentioned, and the
fact that I don't have the experience of it coming from within me, the story
isn't just the quaint way they talked about the "ah ha moment" back in the day,
because everything came from God or demons or whatever. It seems really
sensible to me, it seems to describe precisely what's actually happening, as I
understand it.

Now I'm not saying this should make you believe in God, let's say, if you don't
already. And hey maybe for you, that experience totally DOES feel like it's
coming from inside of you, so I'm talking complete gibberish. Maybe the
subconscious makes complete and utter sense to you. That's great. But hopefully
I've demonstrated how religion and religious experience can be relevant to your
life. Hopefully my story is pretty easily applicable to things like ethical
teachings, e.g. did theGolden Rule stop you from doing something bad? Great,
there's your relevance, there's your experience.

(Tomte/158620) Gwynn> A couple of things you said really resonated with me:

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 09:03:00 -0600

Gwynn>  A couple of things you said really resonated with me:

1) Why does God have to be "good for" something?  I guess he really doesn't,
but I'm trying to justify faith and church to my daughter, and it seemed like
it would be easier to do that if God/faith/church performs some helpful
function. :-)

2) Going deeper and religious experience.  I grew up evangelical and
fundamentalist, so in addition to the hell-fire preaching there was lots of
in-depth Bible memorizing, along with estatic religious experiences.  We have
really tended to shy away from that with our daughter because so much of it
seemed so extreme and toxic.  On the other hand I am now starting to realize
that this has resulted in her having a very superficial knowledge of the
Christian faith.

(Gwynn/158619) Damn it Giraffe, do you and Pecc have some sort of campaign goin...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 07:14:00 -0600

Damn it Giraffe, do you and Pecc have some sort of campaign going on? I post
these things, and in the middle of my rambling incoherent gibberish, you post
something that sums it up in a single sentence. Why you gotta be hatin'?

(Gwynn/158618) Why does a god have to be "good for" anything? That's like sayin...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:54:00 -0600

Why does a god have to be "good for" anything? That's like saying "what is
nature good for? Sure it's nice to go out and be around trees and grass or the
sea or a desert, but then somebody else says who cares, so what's it good for"?
But why does it have to be justified at all?

Re: religion as weakness

If the argument is, I want X Y and Z, and I'm not achieving them myself but via
religion and I can see that as a "weakness", how is therapy or medication or
whatever achieving it more by yourself? That is, I don't see why drugs are you
going, "yep, look at how I'm straightening out my problems all by myself, ha,
I'm tough!", but religion demonstrates you have some sort of character flaw. I
also don't see how drugs would give you the time and space to reflect on
transcendant values. Sure, you could just carve that space out yourself, set
aside an hour of silence or something, but clearly that doesn't work for you,
and what does work is going to church.

Re: the whole question in general again

I didn't have quite the same issue as your kid, but my mom really wanted me to
get confirmed. I said I didn't really want to because I wasn't one for
ceremonies, and it seemed to me that it was between me and God. If I was going
to support the church and all, God would know how I felt about it, and I didn't
need to get up and proclaim it in front of everybody. She was really upset
about this and thought I just wasn't understanding things properly, I was maybe
14 or so at the time. So she had the pastor come out, nice of him since it was
a good hour drive.

So we had a talk, and he gets to the end and says to her, "well, I don't want
to tell you your business as a parent. But he's thought about this way more
than anybody else going through confirmation class". I eventually did get
confirmed, because it was important for mom, but I didn't really see the point.
I eventually drifted away from Christianity for philosophical issues I won't go
into unless you're particularly interested, but that sort of ties in with your
question.

If it were me, I'd answer your own question for yourself. That is, OK, what are
you getting out of the Bible, let's say? Maybe the Golden Rule is really
important for you, maybe you try to apply that to your life as much as
possible. Tell your daughter that. Show her. Talk to her about it. I went to
church because my mom forced me, I didn't see the point either, mostly because
I knew more than the church was telling me already, it was really early in the
morning, (that hour drive), and mom didn't even remember it. She wasn't
interested in church being a learning experience, and I was. For her it was all
sorts of comforting and stuff because it was the church she grew up in. For me
it was, OK, nice people, the sermons are always "be excellent to each other"
and no hellfire and brimstone which is cool, but let's get to some depth, let's
have some discussion about what this stuff means and what you do with it, that
kind of thing.

I guess in a way I'm kind of saying, yeah, she might indeed be able to work 3
out for herself, but if that's kind of the one she's interested in, and the one
you're interested in too, I mean in her having in her life, focus on that. Oh
and experience, I'm a big proponent of experience. If you haven't had or aren't
looking for an experience, and I mean just whatever little thing makes you go,
"yep, that's it", whether that's suddenly figuring out the answer to a problem
and going "cool, that's God", ala the story of Susanna from the Apocrypha,
something in nature, just any sort of encounter, then I'm not quite sure why
you would bother with religion in general. Understand, when I say experience,
I'm not saying anything usper crazy like healing or speaking in tongues or
whatever, not that I've anything against that as such. For me growing up, a big
one was actually reading the story of Susanna and then having what now often
gets called the "ah ha" moment, you know when you're working on a problem, you
go do something totally different, and suddenly, wham!, there's the answer. For
me that was like, "oh hey spirit of God, so that's what that story was talking
about, thanks!"

(Giraffe/158617) What is the utility of love? If you can answer this, then you'v...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:56:00 -0600

What is the utility of love?  If you can answer this, then you've answered your
question as well.

(Tomte/158616) Here's a question I have been kicking around, regarding

Tomte@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 06:52:00 -0600

Here's a question I have been kicking around, regarding
faith and my kid.  I thought I'd post it here as well.

What is God good for?

When I was a kid, this question had a clear answer.  If you didn't
believe and live the Christian life, you would go to hell.

So God was "good for" keeping you out of hell and into heaven.

I don't believe that anymore.  I don't know what happens to people
after they die, but I don't believe that people are screaming and
wailing and burning for all eternity.  I just don't believe it.

A somewhat related question is: Why do I still go to church?  That one
I can answer pretty clearly.  Three reasons:

1) I love the aesthetic of stained glass, choirs, high liturgy and church music
2) Intellectual stimulation on spiritual subjects, especially the book
group that I attend during the adult ed hour
3) In my daily life it is very easy for me to get caught up in a dark,
cynical dog-eat-dog, zero sum, grudge holding, petty type of thinking.
 Going to worship and experiencing 1) above pretty consistently pulls
me out of that funk, reminding me of a better way, transcendent values
of love and kindness. I'm reminded that God/Jesus loves me and the
world unconditionally --this inspires me to try to have that attitude
towards others, creates the space necessary let go of the grudges and
the darkness.

So for me it's a no-brainer to keep going to church.  For me that's
what God's "good for."

Interesting thing is, though, that a lot of people don't really care
about 1 or 2, and 3 may not be an issue for them.  Why should they go
to church, and what is God good for, for them?

My kid is my case in point.  We had a discussion about church and
faith yesterday, and it came up that the only reason she goes to
church is because we make her go, that while she doesn't hate church
and "it's better than going to school" she would not attend if we gave
her a choice in the matter.

1, 2, and 3 were not compelling to her.  She didn't care about 1 or 2,
and she felt that she can work through 3 just fine on her own without
reference to God or church.  She's a very kind, generous person, so I
tend to believe her about 3.

Former Minnesota governor and professional wrestler Jesse Ventura once
famously said, "religion is a sham and a crutch for the weak
minded..."  He made a lot of people angry with that comment, but part
of me identifies with it.  Is not 3 me using religion to address a
defect I have?  Could I not use psychology, therapy, medications, or
self help and address that defect in a way that doesn't refer to
religion at all?  And perhaps more to the point, does a healthy,
well-adjusted person have any need for God at all?

Barring putting fear of hell-fire back into the equation, what is God
really good for that can't be addressed more rationally through other
means?

My wife and I have already started to discuss strategies surrounding
My kid's religious education and upbringing at this point, how to
get her more fully engaged in church, how to increase her biblical
literacy, etc.  But for me it really comes down to what utility
My kid will find in her faith, and that is a tough question.

(Giraffe/158615) Ten percent of theology is divine. We just don't know which 10%.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 02:34:00 -0600

Ten percent of theology is divine. We just don't know which 10%.

(Peccavimus/158614) Perhaps he did insult god, but I learned long ago that disagreei...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 18:11:00 -0600

Perhaps he did insult god, but I learned long ago that disagreeing with my
theology =/= defying god.  No theology is divine.

(Faunus/158613) He was politely showing up to a church full of people who asked ...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:50:00 -0600


He was politely showing up to a church full of people who asked him to come
talk.  Doesn't sound like defying God to me!  Or would God have preferred him
to blow the church folks off and refuse to show up?

I think that if the church folks faithfully expressed the will of God, he was
being very obedient to God.  If they were making demands contrary to the will
of God, sure he was defying God, but you can hardly blame him!

(Gwynn/158612) Uncle Jed:

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:32:00 -0600

Uncle Jed:

How was he defying your god? I'm not saying he wasn't mind you, I've met people
like that, I'm just curious what sorts of things he did/said that you
considered to be defying your god. I don't think I've ever been to anything
like that, so I'm sort of curious. How did it happen, do you know? I mean did
your church invite him, did he call up and say "hey wanna have a debate"?

(Uncle Jed/158611) @Gwynn

Uncle Jed@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 20 Nov 2011 16:16:00 -0600

@Gwynn
This guy was deliberatly defying God. BTW, did i mention this debate was hosted
by our church? lol
It's all good. It gave me an interesting perspective on how hardcore athiests
view christians in america. A lot of unfortunate truths in what he said
regarding the actions of christians that causes him to call the lot of us
"immoral" and "hypocrites". *sighs* Well, no one is perfect. But thank God, or
Jesus that is, that we don't have to perfect to be loved by Him. :-)

(Faunus/158610) Gespalder, what he might have meant was that textual criticism s...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 19 Nov 2011 09:37:00 -0600

Gespalder, what he might have meant was that textual criticism suggests that
there has not been a large amount of textual divergence between the texts as we
have them (of the NT I assume, because you said "Jesus' time") and the texts as
they were written.

(Gwynn/158609) Uncle Jed:

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 21:28:00 -0600

Uncle Jed:

There are quite a few of us, not atheists, who don't really buy your "living
god" stuff, i.e. your god is the only one. I'm not saying that to try to anger
you or whatever, I'm saying that to offer you a different perspective. My gods
live to me just as much as yours does to you, believe me when I tell you that.
I'm not denying your god life and I don't see why you shouldn't extend the same
courtesy to mine. I'm not "defying the 'living God'", as though I know
perfectly well that your god is the only real one but I'm willfully ignoring
that fact, spitting in his face, as it were.

To use a very very rough analogy, it's as though you said "why are you defying
the United Nations!", because I was paying way more attention to local
politics. This is really more on topic in Spiritual since we're kind of getting
into comparing religious systems, but my point is, just as you're committed to
saying there's this one overarching thing we should follow, the UN in my
analogy, I'm equally committed to saying, nope, there's all this other stuff
like the US Govt., state Govt, local communities, arrangements between me and
my fiance, Etc. Sure the UN exists, but you know, it's not really the only
thing out there.

Now sure, you're going to say I'm wrong, what specific reasons you might offer
I have no idea. All I'm telling you is that, from my perspective, I'm not
"defying" your god. To me, here's how defiance works. "I know perfectly well
heroin is illegal. I know I shouldn't take it. My fiance wouldn't like it, it's
against the law, and I could get arrested and put in jail. But I'm going to
shoot up anyway". In other words, I know precisely what I should and shouldn't
be doing, and I'm deliberately choosing to do the thing I shouldn't do, for
whatever reason(s). Well, I have no such knowledge when it comes to your god. I
know because I'm going to tell you I've read the Bible, fairly extensively in
fact, that you're going to respond, if you respond at all, by saying that I
have that knowledge. Or you might tell me, hey he's the living god and rules
everything.

That's fine, but that's just you saying stuff, no offense meant. If I said,
"Buddha is the only true teacher", or "you're under the authority of Olelbis",
or any number of other things, you probably wouldn't accept it either. Which is
to come back to my starting point, we're both equally attached to our own
religions, or in the case of the atheist, the lack thereof. In some cases that
attachment may be weak, or not really born out of any sort of deep reflection
or thought, but in other cases, it's just as deep and meaningful as your
religion, or relationship if you prefer that term,is to you. We're not
willfully defying your god, or frivilously mocking him, or whatever. We've
thought just as deeply about our relationships and beliefs as you have about
yours.

(Vanity/158608) Did God deliberately design the world in such a way as to make f...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 19:50:00 -0600

    Did God deliberately design the world in such a way as to make faith
difficult?

(DesCartes/158607) That's because nobody wants to preserve accounting texts. When w...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 18:20:00 -0600

That's because nobody wants to preserve accounting texts. When we get copies of
them, they're probably originals, and not nth degree copies.

(Peccavimus/158606) Heh, oddly, we have a larger supply of texts involving accountin...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:30:00 -0600

Heh, oddly, we have a larger supply of texts involving accounting from close to
the times of their composition than we do religious texts.  Aside from the
pyramid texts, that is, when the MS is carved on a wall, most writing is pretty
ephemeral.

(Faunus/158605) As ancient texts go, our manuscripts of the bible are pretty dam...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:27:00 -0600


As ancient texts go, our manuscripts of the bible are pretty damn old.
However, that's not saying very much.  Many ancient texts, our oldest copies
are medieval.  Most in fact.  Having physical copies of a text that date from
near its composition is the exception, not the rule.

(Uncle Jed/158604) So I attended a debate last night between a Christian named Alex...

Uncle Jed@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 17:23:00 -0600

So I attended a debate last night between a Christian named Alex McFarland and
the President of an athiest group. I think his name was David Silverman.
Anyway, very interesting....but was really hard to sit through at times. So
many things I wish had been said that were not - so many things that were said
that I wish had not. Had a hard time going to sleep after all was said and
done. I felt a little like David and wanted to shout "How dare you defy the
Living God"...but thankfully stayed in my chair. lol

(Peccavimus/158603) We have no original documents of any new testament books from Je...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 16:59:00 -0600

We have no original documents of any new testament books from Jesus's time. 
The earliest, IIRC, are surviving fragments of John from the second century.

(Gespalder/158602) Question.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 18 Nov 2011 14:42:00 -0600

Question.
While chatting up some guys I met about the Bible one claimed that there is
proof tha the Bible texts are the original documents from Jesus' time.

I have never heard this.
Where is he getting this?

(Giraffe/158601) Speaking of humor, why doesn't Jesus eat m and m's?

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:20:00 -0600

Speaking of humor, why doesn't Jesus eat m and m's?

They fall through his hands.

(Giraffe/158600) In heaven we see all things as they really are, so there is a lo...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 17 Nov 2011 03:17:00 -0600

In heaven we see all things as they really are, so there is a lot of laughter
about everything.

(Vanity/158599) Are there dirty jokes in Heaven?

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 16 Nov 2011 07:43:00 -0600

    Are there dirty jokes in Heaven?

(Faunus/158598) I WIN!

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 07 Nov 2011 02:53:00 -0600


I WIN!

(Gwynn/158597) I'd be happy to take up the wider question of cross linguistic/r...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:20:00 -0600

I'd be happy to take up the wider question of cross linguistic/religious
animism in Spiritual. I know a chunk of the religious stuff, but I suspect
Vanity and Pecc in particular might have some good stuff to contribute
linguistically. And of course I'd be interested in anybody's personal views on
souls and such, being an animist and all. I didn't even know that there was
this much variation in soul talk within Christianity.

(Peccavimus/158596) I knew the moment I hit "post" that someone would point out that...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 12:19:00 -0600

I knew the moment I hit "post" that someone would point out that word "animate"
in my post.  It was just even money between Vanity and Faunus.

(Vanity/158595) Animacy is also a linguistic category, and while it need not map...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 10:13:00 -0600

   Animacy is also a linguistic category, and while it need not map closely to
philosophical categories, may sometimes inform them.  However, there is little
cross-linguistic unity to the categories of animate and inanimate: while adult,
living human beings are always animate, and non-anthropomorphic,
non-theriomorphic constructed objects without moving parts are nearly always
inanimate, the line between the two can be drawn in many places.
   Stars and planets, the Sun and the Moon, are often linguistically (and
philosophically) animate; perhaps because of mythological ideas associated with
them, but also for a very basic reason: they move without being moved by
something else.  The connection between *internally generated movement* and
*animacy* is pretty common.  For the same reason, wind could be considered
animate; and the earth, as something that quakes or erupts, might also be
animate (while individual stones or rocks would not be).  Trees and plants
might or might not be considered animate, perhaps the latter if their growth is
taken into account.  Things which resemble other things that are considered
animate -- e.g., are human-shaped or animal-shaped -- might be attracted into
the animate category as well.
   It would be interesting, though perhaps difficult, to do a study of animacy
categories in the Hebrew Bible.  The concept is introduced quite early on --
it's the conferral of animacy that is one of the divine prerogatives.

(DesCartes/158594) Ah.

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:34:00 -0600

Ah.

(Faunus/158593) Nah, Aquinas knew enough Latin not to remove animae from animali...

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 07:29:00 -0600

Nah, Aquinas knew enough Latin not to remove animae from animalia. :)

"inanimate
objects also had animae"

you see the problem here.  What you mean is that "objects that we consider
inanimate, they considered animate."

I imagine what happened was that people said animals did not have
*immortal* souls.  And via the magic of confusion, that turned into
"animals did not have souls."

(Peccavimus/158592) Yeah, I wondered that too: was it just the church's attempt to i...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 05:03:00 -0600

Yeah, I wondered that too: was it just the church's attempt to incorporate
materialism into their doctrine rather than pick a fight with it.

(DesCartes/158591) My first thought was that animals lost their soul about the time...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 04:57:00 -0600

My first thought was that animals lost their soul about the time of the
Cartesian rationalists or materialists, or whatever they're called. But then I
realized that Aquinas probably took away their soul earlier. (And, of course,
as has been mentioned earlier, there were always differing views on it.)

(Peccavimus/158590) Good point. I hadn't considered that Latin also had a fairly re...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 06 Nov 2011 04:44:00 -0600

Good point.  I hadn't considered that Latin also had a fairly refined
vocabulary for "soul" concepts.

Interestingly, during the renaissance, it was generally assumed that inanimate
objects also had animae, among the most important of which was the anima mundi,
but also each of the planets had its anima, which could influence fate.

So I wonder how far that "mechanical soulless world" doctrine really ever
pervaded the day-to-day life of the worshippers.

(By the way, I just read The Elizabethan World Picture, which is a pretty good
and short explication of this renaissance view of reality)

(Vanity/158589) I'm not quite sure that's it, Peccavimus, since the use of a div...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:59:00 -0500

    I'm not quite sure that's it, Peccavimus, since the use of a diverse
vocabulary for describing 'soul' in theological language lasted down to a
period in which the concept of the 'mechanical' animal was well-established. 
The vocabulary may not have mapped precisely to the Hebrew words, but there was
still a possibility of making distinctions.  The word _animal_ itself implies
that animals are _animate_, that they possess _anima_, though perhaps not
_spiritus_ (depending on how that is defined).  What may have happened, though,
is that the notion of what constituted _anima_ gradually changed, losing the
implication of "voluntary actor" and becoming a purely mechanistic "vital
force" -- a change which I think is more philosophical than linguistic.
    It's a curious phenomenon which crops up repeatedly -- philosophical
concepts which were built on scientific, or pseudo-scientific, ideas that are
now discarded, while the philosophy lives on in spite of the absence of its
original justification.

(Vanity/158588) As far as I can tell, the idea that Christ offered salvation to ...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:34:00 -0500

   As far as I can tell, the idea that Christ offered salvation to humans alone
is of very long standing, though it seems to have stood side-by-side with the
notion of a more general salvation for some time.  That salvation need not have
included animals, however.  Origen, who had rather broad ideas of salvation
encompassing not just humans, but also angels and demons and even living stars
and planets (shades of C.S. Lewis!) but I can't find evidence that he included
animals among them.
   Christianity seems to have continued a Stoic line of argument about the
'irrationality' of animals.  This was disputed against the Stoics by other
ancient philosophers, and is of some interest to me (as a linguist) because
much of the dispute went to the question of whether animal utterances were
meaningful. (The dispute, being purely philosophical, never actually got so far
as considering any practical test to adjudicate the question.  The Stoic case
was a priori and circular: animals are irrational, therefore their utterances
are meaningless, and therefore they are irrational.  The anti-Stoic case rested
on anecdotes.) Why Christians felt compelled to follow the Stoics in this is
unclear to me in general, though in the case of Augustine it is quite clear.
   Augustine had been a Manichaean, and turned against Manichaeism and became a
prosecutor of Manichees.  One of the Manichaean doctrines was that there was a
bit of divine light embedded in every living material thing, plants and animals
as well as humans; and that therefore the Manichaean Elect avoided harming
animals, as causing them pain would also harm the Light within.
   To rebut Manichaean doctrine on this point, Augustine turned to the Stoic
notion of the 'irrational animal', claiming that although animals seemed to
feel pain, it was morally irrelevant, because animals lacked reason and
therefore had nothing in common with humans.  (Augustine would obviously have
disapproved of the SPCA.)
   Obviously Augustine was highly thought of, at least in the Western Church, I
don't know whether or when this opinion of his came to be considered
dogmatically binding.  There were certainly alternative traditions in which
observations of animal life were considered as the foundation for moral
teaching (and which assumed a certain 'humaneness' and rationality, or
quasi-rationality, on the part of the animals) among Christians; but possibly
these came to be regarded as purely literary exercises, and lost any connection
with real living animals.

(Peccavimus/158587) Maybe it has something to do with the collapse of the rich Hebre...

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:53:00 -0500

Maybe it has something to do with the collapse of the rich Hebrew terminology
for "soul" into a single word in translation.  After all, IIRC correctly, in
Jewish tradition animals most certainly do have a nefesh soul, just not a ruach
soul.

(Gwynn/158586) So DID Christ die for a platipus, at some point in Christianity'...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:12:00 -0500

So DID Christ die for a platipus, at some point in Christianity's history? That
would be pretty cool really. Although animals having souls/personalities still
doesn't really explain why they got the fall and, one presumes, original sin.
Unless we extrapolate, just as all men got cursed via descent through Adam, all
animals got the snake's curse too. That still doesn't quite fit though, but ...

(Vanity/158585) I've often wondered when and how the concept of animals as 'soul...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 17:00:00 -0500

   I've often wondered when and how the concept of animals as 'soulless
machines' got dogmatized in Christianity. I don't think there's anything like
that in the Bible -- in fact, there are a couple of instances of talking
animals, and animals behaving beneficently (like the ravens feeding Elijah). 
The traditional view, before the Renaissance (how long before I'm not sure) was
that animals had individual personalities, a family and a social life, and
were, like humans, capable of moral choices, including kindness, generosity,
and charity.  At some point, however, this view was entirely rejected in favor
of the dogma that animals had no personalities and no emotions, but acted
entirely mechanically; and although science has, at length, budged a little bit
from that view (at least toward the view that the differences between human and
animal are more of degree than of kind) it still seems to be very much alive in
theology.  Since the concept is not Biblical, I wonder why -- is it just that
theology is where old philosophical ideas go to die?

(Faunus/158584) Yahweh ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy.

Faunus@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 16:00:00 -0500


Yahweh ain't happy, ain't NOBODY happy.

(Gwynn/158583) Here's a question. So I was listening to this debate between Bob...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 05 Nov 2011 15:42:00 -0500

Here's a question. So I was listening to this debate between Bob Larson, this
old radio preacher, and Boyd Rice, a self-described Satanist, among other
things. So Rice is saying it's all Darwin, man's an animal, Etc. At one point,
a guy calls in to agree with Rice. Larson says that's wrong, he's not an animal
because he was endowed with a spirit by God. Then he says the funniest line:
Christ did not die for a platipus.

But then he goes on to opine that all the animals in Eden were vegetarian. So
why not? Why DIDN'T Christ die for a platipus? More importantly, how did the
platipus get mixed up in the fall anyway. The usual story is, vegan amimals in
Eden, the fall, now animals kill each other, Jesus comes back, the lion lies
down with the lamb, the child plays near the den of vipers without getting
bitten, Etc.

The only animal mentioned in the fall is the snake, cursed to crawl on its
belly and eat dust. Also of course, hatred is put between snakes and people, so
we tramp on its head and it bites us and poisons us. But that's kind of
specifically because it tempted Eve, and Yahweh says so explicitly. So how in
the hell did the other animals get dragged along for the ride? And if animals
are fallen, just like people, then why didn't Jesus die for them too?