Race Issues

(Lochner/94257) I can totally believe that black kids are targetted more often b...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 11:00:00 -0600


I can totally believe that black kids are targetted more often by cops for
searches.  I've long maintained that law enforcement is one of the last
vestigaes of institutional racism in America.

(Gespalder/94256) I am still listening to the program.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:44:00 -0600

I am still listening to the program.

She did make a point I agree with, that small towns are happy to get new
prisons due to the economic benefits (my town of under 500 people had a private
jail. It was later bought by the county sheriff after their jail in the county
seat was found to be in dire need of repair to be fit for human habitation.
BTW, they sold that office & jail building to the Humane Society).

Where this woman is nuts in my opinion is that she says that black kids are
targetted, even while going home from school, by cops for searches of their
backpacks while white middle-class kids are left alone (she claims there is
ample evidence that they do drugs just as much as black do).

She claims blacks are imprisoned more than white for drug offenses. She then
states that they, upon release, cannot get jobs, cannot get financial
assistance (food stamps or public housing) and are branded felons for life. She
says whites do not suffer the same discriminatory treatment.

She is a big believer of the DWB (Driving While Black/Brown) theory. She says
this discrimination is widespread.

I don't know that I believe in this theory. Latinos say they are targetted by
law enforcement as do poor whites (never heard Asians say this) as do Native
Americans.

(Lochner/94255) That argument has been out there for awhile. It has also been s...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:28:00 -0600


That argument has been out there for awhile.  It has also been suggested in
some quarters that Reagan et al intentionally shipped cheap drugs into American
ghettos to get blacks hooked on them and to further inhibit their quest for
social and economic prosperity on par with that of whites.

I've yet to figure out what Reagan's purpose would have been in all of this.
If the racist white in the South didn't know about it, why on earth would they
vote for him on the basis of it?  And in his private life, there's little I'm
aware of to suggest that Reagan was possessed of significant racism.

The man had many failings, but I have trouble making that one of them.

(Giraffe/94253) And?

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:27:00 -0600

And?

(Gespalder/94252) So, am listening to Fresh Air on NPR and the woman being intervi...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 16 Jan 2012 10:23:00 -0600

So, am listening to Fresh Air on NPR and the woman being interviewed says that
the War on Drugs was begun as a way to keep the black man down and to help
Reagan sway Southern Republicans to his side (of the political spectrum).

She also says that it is still a way to keep the black man down as blacks are
targetted for discriminatory treatment.

(Pork Chops/94251) As I wrote you in Mail. I am caught up in a major project and wi...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 15:15:00 -0600

As I wrote you in Mail. I am caught up in a major project and will have to sift
thru this sometime late this evening or tommorow. I really must thank you for
your well reasoned thought on this and think that  we have something to build
on and look very forward to a much improved dialogue between us. I simply diud
not want to shoot off a hasty reponse to all of this.

(Lochner/94250) Also, if it helps, I'll take back my request for articles or pub...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 13 Dec 2011 10:50:00 -0600


Also, if it helps, I'll take back my request for articles or published source,
and suggest that perhaps we merely explore more the evidence within your
personal knowledge, based on your wife's work, and that of her colleagues.
What is the content and nature of that research/work and what does it reveal?
Is it geographically or temporally confined, etc?

(Lochner/94249) "So what we have here is the achetypical clash between a White g...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:44:00 -0600


"So what we have here is the achetypical clash between a White guy who may
never have sat foot in a Black community sitting behind a computer armed with
"facts"."

   I don't have any "facts."  I have opinions offered up by two black
   academics whose writings I found persuasive.  They have facts.

   I fail to see: (a) how you know how many, and which, black communities I
   have set foot in; or (b) why that figure is relevant to the discussion at
   hand.

   "A stark contract fromn the Black person less interested in the academics (
in this instance) but more interested in what he see's on the ground with his
own eyes."

   Indeed, though I'm puzzled as to why the race of either of us is pertinent.
   If I was black and relying on these articles, would that alter anything?
   I can't imagine what or why...

   I don't care for the attempt to turn what is a purely intellectual
   discussion is a proxy race war.  There is no clash here.  You and I are
   truth seeking together.

"Should either position be dismissed in anyway? Therein lies the conflict."

   I agree completely.  On the one hand, I have published academic research.
   Much of it is premised upon anecdotal evidence.  On the other hand, I
   have unsupported assurances from a guy on the internet that those people
   are wrong.

   I cannot believe both.  Do you understand why I choose the published
   academics?  They may be wrong and you may be right but I can't rationally
   leap to that conclusion based on this conversation.

"If you rewad Norwoods response, you sense that her negative reaction mirrored
mine as to "labeling" our kids."

   I did get that impression, and I've already offered a very genuine mea
   culpa for poorly articulating my viewpoint.  I'm not trying to label
   anybody.  I'm trying to understand your point of view, which you haven't
   really substantiated with anything more than more ipse dixits that you
   have experienced and seen things.

"In the end, I would ask Lochner to be keenly aware that his by the book
approach can be perceived as arrogant"

   Again, I'm sorry, I'm not trying to be arrogant.  I am practically
   begging you to give me a reason to give your opinion more weight, and
   you steafastly refuse to do so.  Are you saying that I just simply accept
   your assurances at face value without substantiation, and prefer them
   over the published research of two professors?

   If that's what you want, I may be willing to do that, but you'd have to
   give me a reason why I would, because it seems illogical.

"Bear in mind what Norwood suggested though. There are things within our
community that are so complex, so intertwined  that an "academic" explantation
isn't always obvious."

   I'd go one further and say an academic explanation isn't always possible.

   To bring us back around, I'm hoping we can identify, at a minimum, what we
   do not agree on.  I have already attempted to do so in a prior post.

   Does that post fairly capture the difference of opinion, Pork Chops?

(Pork Chops/94248) Worf. Thank you for your analysis and in many ways it was dead o...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 16:09:00 -0600

Worf. Thank you for your analysis and in many ways it was dead on. I am not
adverse at all to academic explnations. It is just that I do not place -all- of
my wieght purely on academic explanations and papers. I am trained as a
scientist but over the years I have migrated into a management and
administrative role. Interestingly enough, when I need to make a major
decision, I will almost always bring in the academic people and hear what they
have to say, but I'll never make a decision soley on their input. For that, I
go to my go to team-- the people on the ground with years of experience and I
weigh both. The truth is, as it relates to education and teaching, that is not
my area of training and I have no formal education in teaching whatsoever. I do
however, spend an inordinate amount of time in the community donating my time
going to workshops, community meetings, charter school proposal meetings or
just about any initiative related to sucess of our young kids. My wife
compliments that effort with her professional training but more importantly she
has placed me in a close circle of people Black and White who are committed to
minority education. So what we have here is the achetypical clash between a
White guy who may never have sat foot in a Black community sitting behind a
computer armed with "facts". A stark contract fromn the Black person less
interested in the academics ( in this instance) but more interested in what he
see's on the ground with his own eyes. Should either position be dismissed in
anyway? Therein lies the conflict. If you rewad Norwoods response, you sense
that her negative reaction mirrored mine as to "labeling" our kids. In the end,
I would ask Lochner to be keenly aware that his by the book approach can be
perceived as arrogant, in turn I will certainly take WORF's suggestion and try
and augment my on the ground observations with more substantiation. Bear in
mind what Norwood suggested though. There are things within our community that
are so complex, so intertwined  that an "academic" explantation isn't always
obvious.

(Lochner/94247) WORF, I think by "popularity" that author is not measuring popul...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 08:10:00 -0600


WORF, I think by "popularity" that author is not measuring popularity in the
sense of school-wide popularity, just in whether the student has friends.  The
idea that students with higher GPAs will on average have more friends than
students with lower GPAs makes sense in that context.  High-achieving students
tend to be involved in more activities, meet more people, etc.

"It is easy to see how one unfamiliar with your style would think that you were
trying to label all blacks as apethetic about education."

  Again, if that's the conclusion drawn from what I wrote, I apologize for
  being unclear.  I'm primarily repeating conclusions drawn by others, based
  on the persuasiveness of their arguments and analysis.  Those conclusions
  happen to mirror my own, admittedly limited, exposure.

"but for this particular topic that method can come across as "better than
thou" even though that is not the intent."

  Then my apologies, again.  I'm perhaps too influenced by banging my head
  against the wall with other users who repeat the same "fact" or opinion
  and are unable to substantiate it, yet never move off that position
  despite being presented with overwhelming contrary evidence.

  PC seems possessed of an unwavering conviction, and I'm having trouble
  understanding the basis of it.

"Oddly enough, if both of you tried to ebrace the other's style (Lochner try to
become more conversational rather than adademic, PC try to become more adacemic
in styal rather than conversational) I think you would both see each other as
allies rather than adversaries on this topic."

  I don't think we're adversaries, are we?  I'm trying to evaluate PC's
  position, which I think makes sense.  At least, I would expect the black
  middle class to experience less anti-intellectualism than the poor.  I'm
  not convinced that it's so much less as to be rendered a non-factor in the
  lives of middle class black children in primary and secondary educaiton,
  but I believe that PC *does* believe that it's a non-factor.  Other than
  his conversational exposure to this theory, I'd like to know whether he
  has emperical research which also says as much.

  If he does have such research, I'd like to know what it is so that I can
  read it.  I'm skeptical that it's a non-factor, but I would expect, like
  PC says, that it would be less of a factor, by a statistically significant
  margin.

  So, that's not adversarial, that's collaborative.  This is about sharing
  knowledge, resources, data, and research.  I only have three, at present,
  that inform my analysis.  So far, all three appear to support the same
  general conclusion, and that's why I've adopted that conclusion.

  But if there's contrary, or at least complementary research, I'd like to
  read it!

(WORF/94246) Lochner / Pork Chops> Knowing how the two of you write, I honest...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:27:00 -0600


Lochner / Pork Chops> Knowing how the two of you write, I honestly think you're
closer in agreement than you think. It's just that (at the risk of
metadiscussion) Lochner uses a very dry, analytical tone when posting and PC
uses a more direct, shall we say conversational tone. It's two different ways
of communicating, but both are equally valid.

Lochner> To someone who hasn't seen you post in other forums, you could very
easily come across as harsh here. It is easy to see how one unfamiliar with
your style would think that you were trying to label all blacks as apethetic
about education. This stems in part because of the topic and your style. Since
you debate on ISCA with classroom rules and adademic terms, you don't realize
it, but for this particular topic that method can come across as "better than
thou" even though that is not the intent.

Pork Chops> We've certainly disagreed plenty over the years, but one thing I've
learned about you is that you are willing to change your viewpoint if you see
enough information to the contrary. It's just that this particular issue is
very close to the heart for you, so you're probably taking some of it more
personally than it is meant. Which, to be honest, is one of the core problems
our entire country has with race issues. Most of us aren't very good with words
of a personal nature, so when we try to speak plainly on a sensitive topic we
run the risk of offending and when we try to be detached we run the risk of
sounding like we're acting superior.

Oddly enough, if both of you tried to ebrace the other's style (Lochner try to
become more conversational rather than adademic, PC try to become more adacemic
in styal rather than conversational) I think you would both see each other as
allies rather than adversaries on this topic.

Does that make any sense at all?

(WORF/94245) "differently, a black student with straight As is no more popula...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 07:21:00 -0600


"differently, a black student with straight As is no more popular than a black
student with a 2.9 GPA, but high-achieving whites are at the top of the
popularity pyramid."


Not 100% sure about this. I mean, I knew plenty of geeks in high school. None
of us were at the top of the "popularity pyramid." We weren't bottom of the
barrel, but we certainly weren't top dog. And that is in a school system that
was known for its academic achievements.

(Lochner/94244) I'm sorry, but that's the impression you gave. You said you wer...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:28:00 -0600


I'm sorry, but that's the impression you gave.  You said you were engaged in
"dialogue" the other day, then today you said she "responded."  The way you
wrote it, I got the impression she responded to your initial e-mail.  I
apologize for leaping to incorrect conclusions.

(Pork Chops/94243) Well I did take offense to the suggestion that I was less than f...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:23:00 -0600

Well I did take offense to the suggestion that I was less than forthright in my
communication with her. It was completely uncalled for ( and untrue).

(Lochner/94242) I understood that, and clearly I gave the wrong impression of wh...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:17:00 -0600


I understood that, and clearly I gave the wrong impression of what I think if
that's what she thought I gathered rom her piece.  That leads me to believe
that I was unclear, and perhaps you also have the wrong impression of what I
think.

Here is my position:

(1) Anti-intellectualism appears to be a widespread problem in the USA
(2) It plagues all ethnic groups, all races
(3) It's particularly acute among the poor

    [[I'd further submit that it's at its worst among poor rural whites]]

(4) Among certain ethnic groups, including blacks, it takes a peculiar form,
    in that it becomes a form of racial identity, and blacks who do not
    share in it are considered "less" black, or "acting White"
(5) Again, this is most acute among the poor, but the phenomenon is widespread
    and affects all classes of blacks to some degree

 I think you and I probably agree almost 100% up to this point.  Here's where
 we divrge:

(6) I think the phenomenon is still serious enough, even among the black
    middle class, that it merits attention.  You do not.

 And, based on the sources you've provided, I've added the following, which
 I assume you agree with since you provided the source:

(7) Racially integrated schools re-inforce this phenomenon, whereas it's
    nearly non-existant in mostly-black schools.  The reasons for this are
    unclear.


  Note that I'm making broad generalizations.  Obviously, there are individual
  black families, specific schools, even entire communities or regions, where
  this may not be a problem at all.

  I think you and I only disagree in that you claim it's an economic class
  issue.  I'm not convinced that's correct, and I very desperately want you
  provide me with some - any - scholarly research supporting that view point.

  You continue to refuse to do so, nor will you just come out and say that
  you don't have any.  I find that terribly vexing.  It's not 'arrogant" to
  refuse to give credibility to an unsupported opinion.  It's logical.

(Pork Chops/94241) Do go back an d read my original post 94181, then read Norwoods ...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:19:00 -0600

Do go back an d read my original post 94181, then read Norwoods response to my
email. The theme is pretty reoccuring.

(Pork Chops/94240) I did not write that, She did. I sent the unedited transcript of...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:16:00 -0600

I did not write that, She did. I sent the unedited transcript of the thread.

(Lochner/94239) "Sorry for the delay. Crazy busy. Anyway, thanks for forwardin...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:13:00 -0600


"Sorry for the delay.  Crazy busy.  Anyway, thanks for forwarding the string.
You should read the blackthink piece and come to your own conclusions.  I am
a tad sad, I guess, that one would think, after reading my work, that I
believe the entire black community is plagued by apathy.  Not true."

  I do not believe that the entire black community is plagued by
  apathy.

  If that's what you've gathered from my thread, then I apologize for
  not being clearer.

(Lochner/94238) "Here is where the impediment to real race discussions enters- t...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 03:12:00 -0600


"Here is where the impediment to real race discussions enters- that arrogance
that we all know."

  Which part?  Refusing to either explain your sources or admit you don't have
  any?

  That's not race discussions, dude.  That's called backing yourself up.

  If you read any other rooms I post in, I'm equally intolerant of
  unsubstantiated claims in those rooms, regardless of the race of the
  poster.  I'm way meaner to Puffergoose.  Then again, he's also black,
  so maybe you're unto something!

(Pork Chops/94237) If you will provide your email address, I will forward the entir...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:21:00 -0600

If you will provide your email address, I will forward the entire email trail
starting with the original email. In the end, as with my wife, I do not beleive
that she tends to agree entirely with either of us.

(Pork Chops/94236) Sorry for the delay. Crazy busy. Anyway, thanks for forwarding...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:19:00 -0600

Sorry for the delay.  Crazy busy.  Anyway, thanks for forwarding the string.
You should read the blackthink piece and come to your own conclusions.  I am
a tad sad, I guess, that one would think, after reading my work, that I
believe the entire black community is plagued by apathy.  Not true.

Anyway, dealing with the matter of the back community is quite complex.  We
are truly, in my view, the most complicated people on earth.  Some of us
love each other, some hate each other, some hate their own selves, some
value only light skin and good hair, some are brainwashed, some despise the
poor, yada, yada. See the works of Tom Burrell and Joy Leary.   We are not a
monolith and have the same complexities, I would say even more, than any
other group of people.  You say there are two black Americas.  Check out
Eugene Robinson's book. He shows 4.  All come with their own set of beliefs
and values.

My family was not middle class growing up.  Yet the thirst for education and
bettering oneself was instilled in me.  I was not from a unique family in
this way.  And indeed, hundreds of thousands (probably more) of poor blacks
today value education and want better for themselves and their children.
So, we can't say, categorically, that all poor blacks want this or that or
are this or that.  We have been labeled as a group for centuries now.  When
will this stop?

I hope you all try to stop putting folks in a box and help poor and/or
uneducated black people throughout America get out of the ditch they are in.
We gotta find productive ways to help people.  Black people are dying.  We
are slowing becoming extinct.  We need help.  That's where the real work
lies.

(Pork Chops/94235) You are bordering annoying now. I FIRST emailed Norwood on Decem...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:10:00 -0600

You are bordering annoying now. I FIRST emailed Norwood on December 10th just
as I said I had. She replied within half an hour. We have had three email
exchanges. I had sent her the transcript of the thread and it is -that- which
she finally responded to last evening. Here is where the impediment to real
race discussions enters- that arrogance that we all know.

(Lochner/94234) You led be believe that you were already engaged in "dialogue" w...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 12 Dec 2011 02:03:00 -0600


You led be believe that you were already engaged in "dialogue" with her.  Now
it sounds like she's responding to you for the first time.  You've also failed
to provide any other sources of information.

Unless you can give me the name of an author and article, I'm assuming that you
have no sources other than your own anecdotal evidence gleaned from
conservations with unpublished academics with no peer-reviewed articles under
their belts, and I accordingly assign your opinion little credibility.

If you recall or find the sources that inform your opinion, please do post them
so I'll re-assess.  Otherwise, you're plainly unable to support your position
and I consider the discussion concluded.

(Pork Chops/94233) Actually Norwood responded. I will let you draw you own conslusi...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:48:00 -0600

Actually Norwood responded. I will let you draw you own conslusions when I am
able to cut and paste what she wrote.

(Lochner/94232) I'm not offended.

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:29:00 -0600


I'm not offended.

I am re-evaluating my own thoughts on this topic.  So far, I have 2 published
authors, one of whom I know personally, saying one thing, and you saying
another.  I now have a third published author who says, in my assessment,
essentially the same thing as the two authors.

At this point, I'm giving your opinion close to 0 weight/credibility, and that
makes me uncomfortable because you are very confident and self-assured on this
point, in the face of what appears to me to be overwhelming evidence to the
contrary.

So, I'll ask again -- is there something you've read which informs your
opinion?   If you decline again to actually cite a piece of academic
research which directly supports the proposition that anti-intellectualism
as a de-blacking mechanism is a non-factor in student performance in all but
the poorest of schools, I will conclude that you have read nothing on the
topic, are relying on primarily anecdotal evidence gleaned from conversations
with a handful of researchers, and have no reason to dismiss the work of others
on the basis that it's anecdotal.

Basically, I'm trying to get you to give me a reason to give your opinion any
credibility at all, and you're not really offering me much.  Can you cite me to
something your wife has published?  Or one of these multiple unnamed colleagues
you reference?  Or another author on this topic?  If they're as knowledgable as
you imply, I'd expect them to have punlished something somewhere which stands
for the proposition you suggest.

(Pork Chops/94231) I'm not meaning to offend you but my wife along with an entire g...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 18:09:00 -0600

I'm not meaning to offend you but my wife along with an entire group of us who
dedicate our time and energy into the comununity have held these discussions
for *years*. I donate my time because I think that part of the solution is for
those of us who have suceeded to go back into the community and donate our
intellectual as well and finacial resources. My wife has a graduate degree from
Wake Forest and has written about the topic. I have met with her colleauges
over the years and rhis very topic has been discussed over many a meal. You'll
pardon me if this does not conform to an acceptable basis to hold an opinion on
the matter,

(Lochner/94230) There's no reason, but you didn't cite anything she wrote or pub...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:26:00 -0600



There's no reason, but you didn't cite anything she wrote or published, and the
way you wrote your response, it sounded like you asked her only after I
challenged you for a source.  Which in turn makes it sound like you have no
sources, you're just searching for evidence after making the argument.

I'm saying that, given the confidence you have in your argument, I suspect
you've got specific sources that directly confirm your point, and not this one
source you get ad hoc from your wife which appears to contradict it (though
I'll read on as you recommend).

So I'm asking what are the primary sources which informed your opinion on this
topic; I struggle to accept that this one is it.

(Pork Chops/94229) You need to read further into the article.As to my wife, she has...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:23:00 -0600

You need to read further into the article.As to my wife, she has done
significant graduate work on the topic. Why would I not use her as a recoruce?

(Lochner/94228) Also, you said your wife pointed this out to you. You're giving...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 17:05:00 -0600


Also, you said your wife pointed this out to you.  You're giving me the
impression that you have no sources for your claims, but acquired some only
after being repeatedly challenged.  The source you provided does not
substantiate your viewpoint, it seems to contradict it.

So, I ask again -- what is the basis for your opinion?  If it's this article,
I'm struggling to understand how you arrive at your stance based on this
research.  This research would cause me to arrive at precisely the opposite
stance of what you've arrived at.

Is there some other research or experience you're familiar with that informs
your opinion?  I'm struggling to accept that you can feel so passionate about
this topic, and be so confident in your opinion, in the absence of any
supporting sources or experiences.

(Lochner/94227) I don't have time to read it all tonight, but here's a few quote...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:58:00 -0600


I don't have time to read it all tonight, but here's a few quotes that have
jumped out at me:

"My analysis confirms that acting white is a vexing reality within a subset of
American schools."


"Even after taking into account many factors that affect student popularity,
evidence remains strong that acting white is a genuine issue and worthy of
Senator Obamas attention."

"At low GPAs, there is little difference among ethnic groups in the
relationship between grades and popularity, and high-achieving blacks are
actually more popular within their ethnic group than high-achieving
whites are within theirs. But when a student achieves a 2.5 GPA (an even mix of
Bs and Cs), clear differences start to emerge."

"The experience of black and white students diverges as GPAs climb above 3.5.
As the GPAs of black students increase beyond this level, they tend to have
fewer and fewer friends.  A black student with a 4.0 has, on average, 1.5 fewer
friends of the same ethnicity than a white student with the same GPA.  Put
differently, a black student with straight As is no more popular than a black
student with a 2.9 GPA, but high-achieving whites are at the top of the
popularity pyramid."


   I'm not how this confirms your point.  You said the phenomenon was
   basically a non-factor in middle-class schools.  This research says
   it's a substantial problem, to the point where then-Senator Obama
   should do something about it, and that it's lessened in racially
   SEGREGATED schools, not in middle-class schools.

   And, of course, all-black schools tend to be POOR, not middle class.

   This seems to be 100% contradictory to your claim, unless I'm
   misunderstanding your point.

(Pork Chops/94226) It should be come obvoious why I am inclided to beleive his body...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:55:00 -0600

It should be come obvoious why I am inclided to beleive his body of work over
Norwoods.

(Pork Chops/94225) My wife ppointed me to a writing that she ran across while at Wa...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 16:50:00 -0600

My wife ppointed me to a writing that she ran across while at Wake Forest where
she did her grad work. She said that it actually agreess with both our points.
In any event, this is more of the evidence that I feel comfotable with and he
places Mchortons wotk in -context-. Unfortunately my cuit and paste on this
client does not work. Try googleing "acting white by Roland Fryer. You will
note that among his findings, he finds that the pervasiveness of this does not
occur in predominately Black schools or private schools. Do read and I would be
interested in your take.

(Lochner/94224) "One. I beleive that a certain degree of anti intellecualism exi...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 15:19:00 -0600


"One. I beleive that a certain degree of anti intellecualism exists among all
cultures today."

  I agree.  American cultures, anyway.

"At one point in time, it was pervasive within the Black community, however, at
this point in time, that characteristic had faded to the extent that I would
have great difficulty in beleiving that it would have an influnce on the
achievement of our Black kids *today*."

  Again, this the third or fourth time I've asked to explain your basis for
  that opinion, because I have read persuasive research to the contrary.

  No offense, but I'm inclined to believe Ms. Norwood over your ipse dixits.

"To further clarify, our remaining disagreement is the -degree- that
anti intellualism exist in Black kids *today*. My position is that among middle
class Blacks today, that sentiment is neglible."

  Again, based on what?

"I am suprised that you would ask if there is somoething that I see which is
"suspicious" in her writing."

  Why?  You said you're prepared to disregard it because it lacks bona fides.
  Other than that it disagrees with your conclusions, what convinces you that
  it shouldn't be given credence?  Is there something about it that gives
  you pause, other than that you don't agree with the conclusion?

"tend to beleive that what she has presented in anecdotal evidence, if you will
but I am far more interested in peer reviewed controlled studies on the
subject. That said, I do see -some- merit in her work."

  Ok, well, what are those studies, and what do they say?  What your bases
  for your opinion?

(Pork Chops/94223) Lochner. Let me clarify a few things. One. I beleive that a cert...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:34:00 -0600

Lochner. Let me clarify a few things. One. I beleive that a certain degree of
anti intellecualism exists among all cultures today. At one point in time, it
was pervasive within the Black community, however, at this point in time, that
characteristic had faded to the extent that I would have great difficulty in
beleiving that it would have an influnce on the achievement of our Black kids
*today*. To further clarify, our remaining disagreement is the -degree- that
anti intellualism exist in Black kids *today*. My position is that among middle
class Blacks today, that sentiment is neglible. I am suprised that you would
ask if there is somoething that I see which is "suspicious" in her writing. I
tend to beleive that what she has presented in anecdotal evidence, if you will
but I am far more interested in peer reviewed controlled studies on the
subject. That said, I do see -some- merit in her work.

(Smoke Eater/94222) As an aside, McWhorter comes straight out in his preface and *sa...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 10:08:00 -0600

As an aside, McWhorter comes straight out in his preface and *says* that Losing
The Race is not a scholarly work, in response to criticism of it that said it
wasn't scholarly.

(Lochner/94221) "Here's a random idea, but is it possible that the root of some ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 09:56:00 -0600


"Here's a random idea, but is it possible that the root of some of these
problems is simply the fact that different cultures place a different value on
race and ethnicity than others?"

  Possibly, but being "white" isn't really a source of ethnic pride.
  However, being Irish, Italian, Scottish, Russian, German, etc, are.

  Blacks have been largely denied of that specific of an ethnic identity,
  due to slavery, and so identify with a broader ethnic definition that
  pings off skin pigmentation, since that's been the unifying characteristic
  of slaves and their descendents.

  Similarly, white people with no real sense of a more specific ethnic
  identify just take pride primarily in being "Americans."  What else
  do you have?

"Lochner.  I beleive that the problem  does NOT exist today as it did in 1960"

  So are you saying it doesn't exist *AT ALL* today, or that it doesn't
  exist to the same extent/severity?  I feel like you argue from the position
  of "no problem at all," but when we clarify, you say, "It just mean it's
  way less of a problem."

"further, I contend that peer rejection is not an overriding influence among
middle class Black children today."

  Ok, but based on what?  I've provided two academic sources, which in
  turn provided multiple other sources, both anecdotal and published,
  to the contrary, covering all classes and all age groups.

  So far, your evidence consists of your ipse dixit standing alone.

  What is your basis for your conclusion?

"however, I do not agree that it exists today to the extent that you do. I am
also -very- uncomfortable accepting Nowrood as a primary source of information
as I did not find any peer reviewed articles by her on the subject."

  Is there something about her paper that gives you cause to question
  her research?  For example, do you think she's lying about the stories
  told to her by black student at Washington University?

  Candidly, I get the sense that you're seeking to dismiss her primarily
  because her conclusions are at odds with your own, and you've been unable
  to find some basis to differentiate what she's talking about.  You took
  about three stabs at claiming it was generational, and I've had to keep
  pointing out that she got the same stories from younger generations, and
  now you want to dismiss her entirely.

  Also, bear in mind that Norwood is a law professor.  All publications to
  law journals are peer reviewed and workshopped, but there's no methodology
  to review.  So I'm not sure what you expected to find, she's not doing a
  scientific or methodological study.  To the extent that any law professor's
  work is peer reviewed, hers is, and this level of peer review is standard
  practice in acadaemic legal publication, including journal articles cited
  by the Supreme Court, such as the New Property.

  Disregarding all of that, what about McWhorter, then?

(Pork Chops/94220) WORF. Interesting points. As far as dating is concerned, the con...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:56:00 -0600

WORF. Interesting points. As far as dating is concerned, the consitent feedback
that I get from the Black females who I know is they tend to view Whites in
general as arrogannt and with a superiority attitude. They say that they do not
feel that thse men would ever see them on equal footing. Many say tht they are
simply not attracted to White men and I have heard a number of Black females
say that the "arrogance" would impede their ability to understand the
intracies of Black culture. Many are deeply involved in the Black church and
cite that. On the other hand, I have several close Black female friend who are
with White men. They seem to be doing fine but I do notice that they tend to be
rooted in his culture moreso than hers. Why this is so I do not know.

(Pork Chops/94219) Lochner. I beleive that the problem does NOT exist today as it...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:49:00 -0600

Lochner.  I beleive that the problem  does NOT exist today as it did in 1960
further, I contend that peer rejection is not an overriding influence among
middle class Black children today. I think that you and I agree that the
problem is less exacerbated today as it was 40 years about, however, I do not
agree that it exists today to the extent that you do. I am also -very-
uncomfortable accepting Nowrood as a primary source of information as I did not
find any peer reviewed articles by her on the subject.

(WORF/94218) Here's a random idea, but is it possible that the root of some o...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:46:00 -0600


Here's a random idea, but is it possible that the root of some of these
problems is simply the fact that different cultures place a different value on
race and ethnicity than others?

I am speaking purely from personal experience here, but as a white guy who grew
up in Chicago I am very aware of my racial/ethnic makeup (to the point where I
don't identify as "white" on census surveys because I believe it lumps in way
too many different ethnic identites) yet that has never defined me. If someone
asks what I am, my first answer is American. The history of my family tree
simply isn't relevant.

Yet for other folks this history may very well be a big deal. Recently there
was a big debate in CA over banning of shark fin soup. The hunting of sharks
was hurting the population so the state banned it in order to protect them, but
there was a huge outcry from the Chinese population. The arguments put forth in
the press were that it was something that was done in China so it should be
allowed here. Ensuring that the shark population remained at a healthly level
wasn't a concern.

Could it be a similar think for education and dating outside one's race?

I have nothing to back this up academically, it is simply a thought that popped
into my head since we seem to have a good discussion going on.

Please feel free to agree, disagree, support the idea or rip it to shreds.

(Pork Chops/94217) You are being a bit vague. Are you saying that you were the only...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:45:00 -0600

You are being a bit vague. Are you saying that you were the only articulate
smart Black male who got rejected by Blaxck women in your town or did they
reject all smart Black men? Are you saying that thoughout your life Black women
consistently told you that they would not date you specificsally becauase you
were smart and articulate?

(Smoke Eater/94216) No, I have not.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:41:00 -0600

No, I have not.

I have related my experiences in the town where I grew up in my peer group. 
Also, in getting rejected, more often than not I got explicitly told why.

But you want to stick your head in the sand and deny that this happened.

(Pork Chops/94215) I am not trying to denigrate you SE. I am saying there were many...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:36:00 -0600

I am not trying to denigrate you SE. I am saying there were many Black guys whi
were articulate, bright, perhaps dorky who went out and found  sucessful
relationships with Black women in your age group. With that said, I ask oyu to
look -within- instead of castigating an entire group of Black women, which you
have repoeatedly done.

(Lochner/94214) "Dec 11, 2011 13:29 from Pork Chops

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:32:00 -0600


"Dec 11, 2011 13:29 from Pork Chops
I am suprized that it took so long to make that point Lochner because if you
look back I made several referneces to time and even suggested that perhaps the
experiences of Norwood may have been due to a different "time"."

  I've responded to this.  Norwood et al cite to MODERN CHILDREN having
  the same experiences, which is why I don't think you can say, "that's
  a 1960's problem."  It's a 2010 problem, too.

  So again, it sounds NOW like you're saying it's not a 2010 problem.
  If that's your point, I disagree.

  If you're just saying, "It's less of a problem in 2010 than in 1960,"
  then I agree.

  But it's still a problem.

(Lochner/94213) "Dec 11, 2011 13:26 from Pork Chops

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:31:00 -0600


"Dec 11, 2011 13:26 from Pork Chops
NOw we are getting somewhere. I think that it is the latter. Namely that it
exists but is being rapidly declining due to the presence of a strong
Blackmiddle class.
[Race Issues> msg #94208 "

  Then I agree, I think that's very true.

(Smoke Eater/94212) and yet, my 'time' was different as well, considering I'm in my ...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:31:00 -0600

and yet, my 'time' was different as well, considering I'm in my mid 40s.  I
have no doubt that a 16-25 year old intellectual black man *now* wouldn't have
much of a problem attracting someone of the opposite sex....

But you seem to want to denigrate and deny my experiences by leveling personal
attacks against me.  That's not arguing honestly, and that is why both Lochner
and I are very dubious that you are really saying the latter rather than the
former.

(Lochner/94211) "Actually Lochner would you concede that your information is com...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:24:00 -0600


"Actually Lochner would you concede that your information is coming primarily
from academic people"

  Not quite.  My two primary sources are Prof. Norwood and Prof. McWhorter,
  both academics.  But they also relay secondary sources in the form of
  things student themselves are telling them.

  But also:

"where mine is coming from professionals who have substantial experience with
inner kids kids and are actually in the school system?"

  As it so happens, one of my clients is the St. Louis Public school system,
  which has been de-certified for years due to mismanagement and poor
  performance.  Also, the former general counsel for the Kansas City public
  schools is now general counsel for the St. Louis public schools, and it so
  happens that he is black, as well.

  My son got into some trouble at school for telling a black girl to "go back
  to Africa," and my wife and I are highly intolerant of bigotry, and we
  took this rather seriously.  For advice, I turned to my colleague, and we
  had a nice converstaion about race, education, and kids.  Also, the principal
  at my son's school at the time was a black woman (with a Ph.D, if that
  matters), and we had a nice chat with her as well.  She assured us that this
  kind of incident is not racially-motivated, kids that age don't even know
  what they're saying, they just know that what they're saying is offensive.

  Anyway, the point is that I have more direct involvement with race and
  education than just two articles.  St. Louis has one of the most successful
  traditionally black schools in the country, and I've done work for them to
  help preserve that quality and reputation with new innovative programs,
  mentoring societies, and so forth.

  I guess I'm saying that I also have substantial experience not working with
  inner city kids directly, but with professionals who do just that, and
  I agree completely that attitudes at home at a huge factor with these
  children, but other professionals have also told me the same general story.

  They fight, constantly, a cultural bias against school.  While this bias
  plagues white kids, too, it's not premised on etchnic identity.

  Now.  Again, we're talking about poor kids, mostly.  So your point about
  the middle class may still stand.  But, if so, I'm puzzled as to why you're
  highlighting experience with inner city kids in the schools, if your
  argument is that this problem doesn't exist in the middle class.

(Pork Chops/94210) I am suprized that it took so long to make that point Lochner be...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:29:00 -0600

I am suprized that it took so long to make that point Lochner because if you
look back I made several referneces to time and even suggested that perhaps the
experiences of Norwood may have been due to a different "time".

(Pork Chops/94209) Of course you are SE.

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:28:00 -0600

Of course you are SE.

(Pork Chops/94208) NOw we are getting somewhere. I think that it is the latter. Nam...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:26:00 -0600

NOw we are getting somewhere. I think that it is the latter. Namely that it
exists but is being rapidly declining due to the presence of a strong
Blackmiddle class.

(Smoke Eater/94207) And I am with Lochner on that.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:24:00 -0600


And I am with Lochner on that.

(Lochner/94206) "You would know better than I on this. What is the demographic m...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:21:00 -0600


"You would know better than I on this. What is the demographic makeup of the
Black students who attend your law school?"

 I was only friends with two black students.  One of them was upper-middle
 class, her father was the CIO of a Fortune 500 company.  The other was
 from Grenada and only lived in the U.S. for her 4 years of undergraduate
 studies.

 I'm still trying to understand waht your point is, and perhaps you've
 clarified it and I've missed it.

 Are you saying that the anti-intellectual phenomenon does not exist other
 than among the poor?  Or that it exists but is being very rapidly
 extinguished as the growing black middle class refuses to tolerate it?

 I could agree with the later point, that makes sense.

 But I feel like you really believe the former.

(Pork Chops/94205) Actually Lochner would you concede that your information is comi...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:19:00 -0600

Actually Lochner would you concede that your information is coming primarily
from academic people where mine is coming from professionals who have
substantial experience with inner kids kids and are actually in the school
system?

(Pork Chops/94204) You would know better than I on this. What is the demographic ma...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 08:13:00 -0600

You would know better than I on this. What is the demographic makeup of the
Black students who attend your law school? As to the parents, I am not moving
the goal posts but sharing professional advise from those who are actually on
gthe ground working with these kids. They maintain that parental involvelement
trumps peer resistance.

(Smoke Eater/94203 Forum Moderator) By the way, this is an open forum, so don't expect to have merel...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 03:44:00 -0600

By the way, this is an open forum, so don't expect to have merely a two-way
conversation if you're posting here.  Complaining about someone jumping in
about a comment you directed to someone else....that's metadiscussion, and will
get you Deleted and Warned.

(Lochner/94202) "Bully for me? YOU are the one who felt it necessary to jump in ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:46:00 -0600


"Bully for me? YOU are the one who felt it necessary to jump in on a comment
directed towards Smoke Eater."

  Yes.  As in, "Good for you" or "You are fortunate."  Your hostility is
  unnecessary.

"The issue of Blacks resisting education has become more of a
*class* issue than a Race issue."

  That may be, yet we have anecdotal evidence of de-blacking educated
  blacks.  Maybe only poor blacks do this, as you suggest.

"As I attempted to explain to you before, the phenomena that you describe is
seen more in a discreet segment of the population,"

  Well, I went to Washington University, where Prof. Norwood teachers, and
  I assure you that the vast majority of black students there are not from
  poor households.

  Or are you arguing now that poor blacks routinely get into Top 20 law
  schools?

"Therefore it would be disingenious to characterize that problem as
one for the at large Black community."

  I have multiple sources saying it is, and one source saying it isn't.
  The one source is your ipse dixit.

"You could have a parents night in the inner city schools and 4
parents at best will show up. Have that parent night in the suburbs and you
will see nearly 80 percent participation from Black parents. Clearly it is a
class issue *today*."

  You've moved the goalposts.  Those are parents, not peers.

(Smoke Eater/94201) "Again, not to rip on him"..... I call bullshit.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 11 Dec 2011 02:15:00 -0600

"Again, not to rip on him".....  I call bullshit.

I didn't draw massive generalizations about women.  I said that the shit
happens, and I related my experiences.  I never said *all*.  You're the one
trying to say it doesn't exist at all, and using personal attacks to bolster a
very weak argument.

(Pork Chops/94200) That is true WORF and we have talked about this before, there ar...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 20:41:00 -0600

That is true WORF and we have talked about this before, there are a certain
core of Black women who will not date a White man under any circumstance, but I
think that same core exists across the races. In my dating days, I too dated
across many ,lines but there were certain  White women, a good deal of Indian
women too would were fairly fastitious about dating within their race. I get
that. My issue with Smoke Eater is the *conclusion* that thse women preferred
ballers and thugs, which places a character judgment on the women who rejected
him. Woeman are attracted to us on many differing levels, depedning on the
woman. Some physical attributes others money or the promnise of. It just
depends on  the woman and Black females are no different. For me,  the women
who tend to be attracted to me tell me that it is because I am smart and funny.
I am surte that ALL of us have that something that women fiund attractive about
us. Not to rip on SE but several White women who have met him all characterize
him as having an odd personality quirk. Again not to rip on him, but I think it
is much more likely that something was going on with him at the time than to
draw thse massive generalizations about Black women.

(WORF/94199) My only comment on the dating thing (PC and I have discussed thi...

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 20:10:00 -0600


My only comment on the dating thing (PC and I have discussed this before) is
that as a white guy (and a white geek at that) I've dated across the racial
spectrum with the only exception being black american women. Not that I didn't
try as I've met quite a few stunning women over the years, but it's just that
black american women are the only women who have ever flat out refused a date
because "I don't date white guys."

I can't speak to the root of the cause (hell, maybe they all thought race was
an easy out and a way to turn me down indirectly) but if there is some sort of
general negative view towards dating interracially, then I could see why
someone like SE who was perceived as "acting white" when younger might have
more issues on the dating front.

(Pork Chops/94198) Bully for me? YOU are the one who felt it necessary to jump in o...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 17:11:00 -0600

Bully for me? YOU are the one who felt it necessary to jump in on a comment
directed towards Smoke Eater. I merely responded to YOUR post. Again, as to
your concern. The issue of Blacks resisting education has become more of a
*class* issue than a Race issue. The question in the vast majority of middle
class Black homes is no longer if your kids will attend college, it is *which*
college will your child attend. As I attempted to explain to you before, the
phenomena that you describe is seen more in a discreet segment of the
population, Therefore it would be disingenious to characterize that problem as
one for the at large Black community. If we atre going to attack the problem
lets attack it where it exists and not go labeling a problem tthat is
increasingly related to *class* as  Black problem. My wife is an Assistant
Principal fir an inner city school and she and her colleauges constantly harp
on this issue. You could have a parents night in the inner city schools and 4
parents at best will show up. Have that parent night in the suburbs and you
will see nearly 80 percent participation from Black parents. Clearly it is a
class issue *today*.

(Lochner/94197) Bully for you, then. I don't have much to offer on that specifi...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:34:00 -0600


Bully for you, then.  I don't have much to offer on that specific point
(dating), I'm speaking more about deep-seated elements of ethnic identity for
American blacks.

Again, there seems to be, in many but not all, black communities a sense that
academic success is fundamentally "white," or at least "not black," and this
discourages blacks from reaching for academic success.  Prof. Norwood writes
about it for both her generation, and catalogues that other black law students,
who are obviously a generation younger than her, have also experienced it.
Prof. McWhorter writes about it, and how he has observed it among younger
blacks as well.

Are you saying that it simply doesn't exist and they're wrong?  Or are you
saying that it's less of a problem than they make it sound?

I can tell you, as a white man, that anti-intellectualism is rampant among my
people, too (one need only consider the influence of GOP to see evidence of
that), but the major difference is that anti-intellectualism among whites is
not a matter of "being white" or not, but of being a nerd or not.  People who
are nerds generally recognize that they will someday rule the world, if they
can just grin and bear 4 years of high school.  Whites are not in the position
of being stripped of ethnic identity, while also being a member of a minority
group that is constantly beleaguered by both institutional and casual racism.

Having to put up with anti-intellectualism as a white man is, I submit, far
easier than having to endure it as a black man.

If this phenomenon does exist, it's importnat to identify it and address it
head-on.  I understand the instinct to turtle up and resist it; it's an
opportunity for white people to say, "Ha!  This is all your OWN fault, quit
blaming us," and let's be honest - that's something whitey VERY much wants to
be able to say.  But, even if this phenomenon exists, that's still wrong.

A concern within one community is a problem for *all* communities.  While I do
not believe America is a well-integrated society from a purely social
standpoint, I do think we are highly integrated society culturally and
professionally.

(Pork Chops/94196) Lochner. Incidently I was fairly dorky back then too. Marching b...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 16:32:00 -0600

Lochner. Incidently I was fairly dorky back then too. Marching band the whole
nine yards an very studious. Never had a problem finding and datiung quality
Bl;ack women. Never.

(Pork Chops/94195) So what you are saying is that at the age of 25 the majority of ...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:50:00 -0600

So what you are saying is that at the age of 25 the majority of Black women
were interested in thugs and ballers correct? It is not that I disagree with
you as much as I think that you are perpetuating a pure myth while completely
discouting the possibiliy that your personality or a character trait about you
could have been a turn off for these young women.

(Smoke Eater/94194) Lochner, I thank you, but don't worry about it. Too many of my ...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 15:18:00 -0600

Lochner, I thank you, but don't worry about it.  Too many of my fellow blacks
want to stick their heads in the sand and deny that it occurs at all, so
they're quick to jump on any of us who cite experience with it.  PC is a prime
example right here of this.  I don't agree with him, therefore there must
obviously be something wrong with me...whatever!

Yeah, I'm sure as a stable, educated man with a job I could attract a black
woman *now*....  it's about 20 years too late for that.

(Pork Chops/94193) Maybe SE had other issues. Why were hundreds of thousands of oth...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 14:25:00 -0600

Maybe SE had other issues. Why were hundreds of thousands of other intelligent
Black men his age able to attract Black women.

(Lochner/94192) I'll also point out that people like McWhorter didn't grow up in...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:52:00 -0600


I'll also point out that people like McWhorter didn't grow up in the 50's and
60's, and both Norwooda nd McWhorter's books are replete with anecdotes from
black students who all report the same phenomenon -- being "de-blacked" because
of academic aptitude.

I think it's fair to argue that this is lessening, but to dismiss that it
happens to a lot of intellectual blacks, or that it happens at all, seems
unduly dismissive.  Read "Blackthink," Norwood quotes a number of other black
professionals who all report the same thing.

 Educational and acedemic success is "acting white."

(Lochner/94191) Being a "dork" is one thing. I was a white dork.

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 13:51:00 -0600


Being a "dork" is one thing.  I was a white dork.

But having your racial identity challenged on grounds of dorkiness is quite
another thing, and I submit it's more difficult to resist.

(Pork Chops/94190) Lochner. She and I are in dialogue now. Her age is important bec...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 11:38:00 -0600

Lochner. She and I are in dialogue now. Her age is important because she grew
up during the 50's and 60's. By then that emerging middle class barely existed.
Smoke Eater with all due respect and we've talked about this before. NO offense
but most would have viewed you as fairly dorky in your earlier years. Girls of
ANY race tend to not be ingterested in that type at 15-18. Why is it that the
rest so many other Black men and women found each other and asre in that main
middle class circle if that you say is true. I have asked you before and will
ask you again to please stop perpetuating the false myth that young black women
only seej ballers ans thugs. You do a disservice to yourself and the young
people  out with with ambitions and goals.

(Smoke Eater/94189) I'm in my mid 40's, and my experience is similar to hers. Growi...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:41:00 -0600

I'm in my mid 40's, and my experience is similar to hers.  Growing up, the
black girls didn't like me because I wasn't a baller or a thug..I liked black
girls, but wound up marrying a white woman because of constant rejection by the
black women as not black enough.

Of course, then I have to deal with a complete jackass lying about what I said
in order to excoriate me for being married to a white woman because of his
insane racial views (are you listening, Tinho?)

(Lochner/94188) She's in her 40's, maybe early 50's. Her experience is consiste...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 09:39:00 -0600


She's in her 40's, maybe early 50's.  Her experience is consistent with what
I've heard anecdotally from other successful black attorneys at my firm.

(Pork Chops/94187) I would never mention you anyway- that would be pretty rude. I a...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:28:00 -0600

I would never mention you anyway- that would be pretty rude. I am also trying
to get a sense of the timeline of when she grew up as well.

(Lochner/94186) " In 2003, I conducted a survey of Black law students at Washing...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:17:00 -0600

" In 2003, I conducted a survey of Black law students at Washington University
in  connection with my research for this article. All students were asked if
they were ever  accused of not being Black enough. The survey results revealed
that many of these  students, all of whom did very well in their secondary and
undergraduate educational  experiences, also were taunted, teased, and accused
of wanting to be White by Black  friends, classmates, and family members
because they did well in school.

This is the  Black/education link I refer to above, or what Professor John
McWhorter calls "the cult of anti-intellectualism." See  JOHN H. MCWHORTER,
LOSING THE RACE: SELF: SABOTAGE IN BLACK AMERICA 82-163 (2000) [hereinafter
MCWHORTER, LOSING  THE  RACE]. The interesting thing about this shared
experience is the twentyyear span between my nearly identical experience and
those of my students. This span reflects the reality that this is a
continuing problem. As McWhorter puts it, "in telling [my experiences] I join
legions of other Black people who have reported in myriad articles and books
that they were teased for being smart.  Reports of young African-Americans'
strong tendency to discourage one another from doing well in school are
numbingly common both on paper and in oral anecdotes from Blacks." Id. at 122-
23;  see also Tony Browns Journal: Can Black Athletes Score in the Classroom?
(PBS television broadcast, May 9, 2004) (interview with Dr. Leonard Moore,
Director of African and African-American Studies at Louisiana
State University).


   .... again, white kids are also teased for being smart, but not as a
   matter of ethnic, cultural, or race identification.  It's just garden-
   variety "nerd" bullying.  White kids don't have to worry about being
   considered "non-White."

   Prof. McWhorter argues (persuasively, in my opinion) that generations of
   white racism against blacks, especially in the context of education, has
   embedded upon the black social pysche the concept that "education isn't
   meant for us" and "it's not what we do."  It's not that black people don't
   *want* or *value* education, it's that white people have denied it for so
   long that it's understood as "acting White" or at least not Black, to
   achieve academic success.

   If you're arguing that this attitude is changing, I agree, you see more
   and more black intellectuals who absolutely *hate* this kind of anti-
   intellectualism, and are trying to teach it out of their children.

   There's progress.  But to deny that it exists at all?  Not sure I buy that.

(Lochner/94185) "Despite various hurdles and internal struggles, I ultimately gr...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:16:00 -0600


"Despite various hurdles and internal struggles, I ultimately graduated
from college. But that accomplishment  came at a painful priceI lost
my best friend. During our high school years, this friend periodically
made derogatory comments to me about being a "wanna-be White girl"
because I performed well in school. This episodic ridicule turned into
hate when I started college and the friendship didnt survive. The irony,
of course, is that I was the same person; the only difference was that I
was in college. For my friend, that was reason enough to de-black me."

(Lochner/94184) She won't know who I am, I never took a class from her. This is...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:13:00 -0600


She won't know who I am, I never took a class from her.  This is what I'm
referring to:

  http://law.wustl.edu/faculty_profiles/documents/norwood/blackthinkarticle.pdf

 Prof. Norwood writes:

"In my family, education was viewed as the key to success. As the
oldest grandchild on either side, I was expected to become the familys
first college graduate. Although I worked hard, by middle school I
realized that academic success was equated with trying to be White.

For years I walked a tight rope: I tried to satisfy teachers and family on
the one hand and my schoolyard friends on the other. Satisfying the latter
meant academic unsuccess."


  Obviously all children of all races who excel in school face playground
  ridicule, but WHITE children do not have their ethnicity questioned as
  a consequence.

Another excerpt:

  "A former law school friend and current lawyer, Lisette Reid, a
   Trinidadian, tells of her experiences with challenges to her ethnic
   authenticity:

"I moved to Missouri when I was six years old. My parents came to America to
get an education and made education a  priority in their lives and in their
childrens lives. Good grades were simply expected because that was what we
came here for. On the other hand, this made me very different from the other
Black children growing up in Columbia and Warrensburg, Missouri. They
easily came to the conclusion that I was not Black. On the other hand, the
White children could clearly see that I was not White. And, when I returned to
Trinidad to visit my relatives, because I had grown up in America and had not
attended school and other activities with them over the years, I was not a
Trinidadian."

(Pork Chops/94183) I am surprised that she would beleive that the concept of educa...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 07:45:00 -0600

I am surprised that she would beleive that  the concept of education is
perceived as foreign considering the huge push among middle class Blacks to
push our kids into higher education. I would go so far as saying that in that
class, there is an *expectation* that your kid advance. I did go ahead and
email Kim for clarification. I would not agree at all that the apathy towards
education should be blamed on anyone but the parents of those kids ( and I know
that you did not suggest otherwise). At the end of the day, it comes down to
parental involvement and this is what we are attempting to address in that
inner city comm,unity,.

(Lochner/94182) Careful yourself. I didn't say they don't value education. Ju...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 02:29:00 -0600


Careful yourself. I didn't say they don't *value* education.  Just that it's
perceived as foreign, or alien, and I actually place the blame for that
perception primarily on white people.

But otherwise I get your point.  My thinking on this is heavily influenced by
Kim Norwood, a black law professor at my law school.

(Pork Chops/94181) Lochner. I think that you need to be careful when you suggest th...

Pork Chops@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 09 Dec 2011 18:19:00 -0600

Lochner. I think that you need to be careful when you suggest that there is a
"cultural resistance to education within the Black community". The reality is
there are two Black communities, one a stable middle class of largely working
people and professionals. Most Blacks fall into this group. There is also
another community of largely urban poor and uneducated Blacks who for whatever
reasons remain impovershed. It is the latter segment not the former who tend to
not value education. Bear in mind though that even among this group, more and
more kids are college bound-- although often this is counterbalanced by the
tendency to produce multiple offspring. We need to debunk the myth that Blacks
as a group do not value education and educate ourselves the dynamics of the
modern Black community.

(Smoke Eater/94180 Forum Moderator) Ok, I'm late to the game because I missed one from two days ago,...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 16:27:00 -0600

Ok, I'm late to the game because I missed one from two days ago, but I said no
metadiscussion.  You don't know what a poster is thinking as they type what
they type.  Address what they say in here, not what you think.  If you purport
to read between the lines, it's easy to fill in the blanks with what YOU want
the other guy to be saying rather than what they're really saying.

And the person this is directed at knows who they are, and knows they need to
knock it off.

Oh, and I don't respond well to threats either.  If you don't like something
going on in here, approach me with the basic respect we all owe each other as
adults.  Anything else is just going to get you blown off.

(Lochner/94179) I'm not talking about nice apartments, I'm talking about cheap a...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 09:00:00 -0600


I'm not talking about nice apartments, I'm talking about cheap apartments that
aren't located in the slums.

But that's a fair point - many of the people we're talking about might not be
able to rent due to problems with credit, income, etc.

(Miser/94178) TGG> Except I think the hypothetical included at least one room...

Miser@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 08:59:00 -0600

TGG>  Except I think the hypothetical included at least one roommate, right?

When I graduated high school, I lived on $6/hour for at least 2-3 years.  I
didn't live in the suburbs or the projects.  I lived downtown with roommates,
bought what I needed on sale and biked it where I needed to go, even long
distances.  It wasn't comfort living, to be sure, but that went a long way
toward inspiring me to learn a trade and work my way into something better.

(The Great Godzilla/94177) Did the nice apartment complexes stop doing background checks on...

The Great Godzilla@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 08:50:00 -0600

Did the nice apartment complexes stop doing background checks on applicants?
Every apartment I lived in during grad school, even the ones in the ghetto in
Austin (where the neighbors included 8 Mexicans living in a 1-bedroom apt), had
an application process where you had to provide proof of income. The common
threshold seemed to be on the order of rent not exceeding 40% of total gross
income. Unless things have changed in the last few years, those "nice"
apartments are already out of reach in this hypothetical.

(Egregious/94176) Goodwill is a great place for clothes when your old ones wear ou...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:47:00 -0600


Goodwill is a great place for clothes when your old ones wear out.

(Copper Lethe/94175) I suspect that people don't do it in larger numbers because not ...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:32:00 -0600


I suspect that people don't do it in larger numbers because not only is it not
easy, at times it is nearly impossible.

People living in the slums ARE doing it.  That's why they live in the slums.
Because they can afford to.

"Someone moving out of the ghetto, as Lochner said, still has their
clothes"

For how long, though?  Clothes don't last forever.  Especially if you have
kids.

"It's not like the suburbs are filled with MRSA and broken glass to make those
more likely there."

True, but the cost of living in the suburbs is higher, which makes the impact
of a medical problem greater.

"What's the point of working your ass off for crappy wages to afford a crummy
apartment in a nice part of town...when you could just live in a crappy
apartment in a CRAPPY part of town, not work at all"

Or, the third option, live in a much cheaper crappy apartment in a cheaper
crappy part of town, and make surviving on $8 an hour more managable.  Living
in the ghetto doesn't mean not having a job.

(Egregious/94174) Someone moving out of the ghetto, as Lochner said, still has the...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:22:00 -0600


Someone moving out of the ghetto, as Lochner said, still has their
clothes.

Yes, it requires not getting into an accident or becoming so sick you
can't work.  But those are also risks in the ghetto.  It's not like
the suburbs are filled with MRSA and broken glass to make those more
likely there.

(Lochner/94173) Then you get a roomate and split the bills. The point is that i...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:17:00 -0600


Then you get a roomate and split the bills.  The point is that it's not easy,
and you're living on the edge, but it's do-able, and it's certainly better than
living in the fucking slums.

So why don't people do it in larger numbers?

I suspect that the "it's not easy" part weighs in.  What's the point of working
your ass off for crappy wages to afford a crummy apartment in a nice part of
town, living on the edge, barely getting by, on the verge of financial
catastrophe at any given time, when you could just live in a crappy apartment
in a CRAPPY part of town, not work at all, and be in basically the same
circumstance.

(Copper Lethe/94172) As long as you never get sick or injured, never have an emergenc...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 07:06:00 -0600


As long as you never get sick or injured, never have an emergency and spend the
16 hours away from work sitting on a floor in your one pair of pants watching
the wall, it's completely possible.  But if you're ever in the position where
you need to choose one bill over another, it's going to fall apart.

I've done it myself, too, and I have the credit to prove it.

(Egregious/94171) That sound eminently do-able for a single person without kids --

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 06:53:00 -0600


That sound eminently do-able for a single person without kids --
providing that the public transportation is decent so that you
can get to work in less than an hour for $40 or so a month.

I've done it myself, although I knew that TV wasn't an essential,
so I didn't spend hours every day watching commercials so stuff
I couldn't afford.

(Copper Lethe/94170) "I do wonder, though, why people in slums don't move out. You c...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 06:33:00 -0600


"I do wonder, though, why people in slums don't move out.  You can rent a
two-bedroom apartment in a nice part of suburban St. Louis for between about
$600/month and $900/month.  The shittiest jobs in the suburbs pay at least
$8.00/hour.  If you worked full time - call it a 160 hour month, that's $1280
in income."

I think that's unrealistic.  Even at the cheapest, after rent is paid you have
$680.  Then figure the utility cost at around $65 a month, you're left with
$615.  Even you eat nothing but Ramen noodles, three times a day, every day,
and drink only water, you're looking at a grocery bill of no less than $45 a
month. If you're going to get that $8/hr job, you're going to need a phone, so
that's going to run you $30/mo or so, for a landline with no long distance or
cheap pre-pay service.  So then you're left with $550 a month for luxuries such
as toilet paper, soap, laundry detergent, toothpaste, etc.   And since we live
in an age of technology, non-essentials like television and internet service
are nearly essentials.  On top of that, you need to pay for gas (or bus
passes), insurance (if you drive), clothing, appliances, utensils, etc.

At that sort of income, it only takes a simple slip on the ice to send you back
to the slums, or worse.

Throw a child into the mix, and it's not even possible.  You aren't
realistically raising a kid in a $600 apartment on $1280 a month.

(Lochner/94169) I think there are both extrinsic and intrinsic forces that preve...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 05:49:00 -0600


I think there are both extrinsic and intrinsic forces that prevent minorities
(and really, everybody else in poverty) from escaping poverty.

The question is, what legal or politial steps should be taken to reduce these
barriers?  At what point have you "done enough" to help, and you can fairly
say, "it's up to you to make use of these tools."

Undoubtedly, there is a cultural resistance to education within the black
community in particular.  It's viewed as fundamentally alien, something that
"they" do, and "we" do not.  It's not that blacks don't respect or value
education, it's just not an engrained cultural element, just as it isn't an
engrained cultural element of rural white culture.  However, in cultures where
education *is* tightly engrained, such as among Jewish immigrants, you see
profound academic and material success, even among people who were severely
disadvantaged and discriminated against for generations.

If you accept that this cultural resistance is a factor, the question is, how
do you eliminate it?  It's every bit as important to mitigate intrinsic factors
as extrinsic, is it not?

It's politically incorrect to talk about this because it's perceived as white
people telling black people, "this is all your fault," which is both untrue and
unfair.  And, understandably, blacks may see this conversation as an assault on
progress they've aleady made.

Basically, it's really hard to have an honest conversation about race in this
country.  Even this post -- I've made some generations about what "blacks" and
the "black community" does, says, and believes.  There are people - both black
and white - who would be happy to absolutely rip my head off for offering
observations and generalizations, which effectively prevents us from ever
actually talking about whether those points have any validity.

(MIKEY/94168) "Do you not think that race is already an established factor in ...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 03:00:00 -0600

"Do you not think that race is already an established factor in poverty and
illiteracy?  Do you think that blacks just decide to live in crappy
neighborhoods with crappier schools, and racial division has nothing to do with
that?

Oh heavens no, those folks only have multiple children in single or no parent
homes, make fun of students who actually study to get good grades because
"whitey" and "the man" are holding them down.

(Egregious/94167) This isn't a scientific study, but still enlightening on the cau...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 07:31:00 -0600

This isn't a scientific study, but still enlightening on the causes of
single motherhood in poor urban areas.
http://www.amazon.com/Promises-Can-Keep-Motherhood-Marriage/dp/0520241134

If you don't want to read it, the reviews provide some good excerpts.

(Lochner/94166) I'm going off memory here, but one of the studies I read in scho...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 04:05:00 -0600


I'm going off memory here, but one of the studies I read in school had
indicated that when you adjust for things like education, employment, hours
worked, and a bunch of other factors, the difference in income between blacks
and whites was relatively small, smaller than the difference between Latinos
and whites, and Latinos and blacks.

The problem is that you have to adjust for variables that aren't totally within
the individual person's control, like where you were born.  That is, a black
person born in the suburbs to a two-income family where both parents have
4-year degrees and full-time employment would tend to grow up and have the same
advantages as a white kid in that neighborhood and make the same amount of
money.

That is, the race of the person isn't the direct indicator.

I do wonder, though, why people in slums don't move out.  You can rent a
two-bedroom apartment in a nice part of suburban St. Louis for between about
$600/month and $900/month.  The shittiest jobs in the suburbs pay at least
$8.00/hour.  If you worked full time - call it a 160 hour month, that's $1280
in income.  Split the 2BR with a friend and you've got $2500 in gross income.
That ought to be enough for the apartment, utilities, food, plus a cell phone
and cable, and if you don't live close enough to work to walk, you can take the
city bus.

It gets you out of the slums, at least, but then how do you do better?  How do
you get an education?  I suppose you can apply for student loans.

But people don't do this, obviously, in great numbers.  So it's either harder
than it sounds, or there's other barriers such as social and community inertia
that inhibit it.  I think both is likely the case.

Anyway, my point is that I suspect racial poverty is not directly tied to race
so much as circumstances of birth.  If you're born into an urban ghetto, the
odds of getting out are pretty slim, and the percentage of minorities born into
urban ghettos is much higher than the percentage of whites.

(Copper Lethe/94165) That's certainly true, but within the family structures (single ...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 18:34:00 -0600


That's certainly true, but within the family structures (single parent and
two-parent), blacks are also more likely to be in poverty.

Keep in mind that I'm getting my figures from Wikipedia.

26.6% of single parent families live in poverty.

40% of the single parent families who live in poverty are black.
30% of the single parent families who live in poverty are white.

That's a huge disparity.

The disparity is similar among married families.

5.4% of white married families live in poverty.
8.3% of black married families live in poverty.
14% of hispanic married families live in poverty.

Those are pretty astounding disparities, as well.

(Lochner/94164) As I recall, poverty is tied more closely to single-parent famil...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 17:29:00 -0600


As I recall, poverty is tied more closely to single-parent families than with
race.  But then race is tied with the odds of being a single-parent family.

(Copper Lethe/94163) Leave it to MIKEY to chime in when he perceives that "racism" mi...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 06 Dec 2011 16:17:00 -0600


Leave it to MIKEY to chime in when he perceives that "racism" might be
impacting white people.

"So why have race enter the decision process at all?"

Race is already in the picture.  That's why it's beneficial to promote
diversity.

Do you not think that race is already an established factor in poverty and
illiteracy?  Do you think that blacks just decide to live in crappy
neighborhoods with crappier schools, and racial division has nothing to do with
that?

(Lochner/94162) "You lawyers need to confir on your arguements. One of you says...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:39:00 -0600


"You lawyers need to confir on your arguements.  One of you says the law can be
discrimintory if there is a compelling reason.  The other one says these laws
are not discrimintory at all.  Which is it?"

  The two are not mutually exclusive.

"As far as what is overriding...I'll stick to my interpretation based on the
fact that several of you immediately used that as a reason to be ok with using
race as a factor in the selection process."

  That doesn't make sense.  It's "a" reason, therefore it's "the" reason?

  The reason "diversity" is invoked is because that's what the state argues.
  The court only asks whether it's "a" compelling purpose.

  There's no languge in the case law suggesting that it must be the
  overriding purpose.  If I'm being candid but diplomatic, the lack of a
  legal education is somewhat evident here, as you're confusing necssary
  and sufficient criteria.

"Using discrimination to combat discrimination seems pretty 1984ish to me.  Not
to mention it will never end...not in 50 years, not in 150 years."

  Oh, you don't have to sell me on it.
  I think the 14th Amendment should be enforced far more strictly.

(Giraffe/94161) Just for the record, there absolutely was forced busing in Seatt...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 14:25:00 -0600

Just for the record, there absolutely was forced busing in Seattle's public
schools: in the 70's, 80's and 90's. I was there. Worse than not working, it
made things worse by just about every measure. So that's part of the context of
this article which any Seattle reader would know.

(WORF/94160) Dec 4, 2011 16:55 from Falcon

WORF@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 13:16:00 -0600


Dec 4, 2011 16:55 from Falcon
I referenced the article.  I referenced forced busing.  Not agreeing with me is
fine, but to say I'm not answering questions as to my position is silly.  "But
you keep going ahead and think I haven't."
[Race Issues> msg #94119 (40 remaining)] Read cmd ->



You mentioned the article. And you kept saying it was "forced busing," but when
I asked you to explain how you made the leap from "parental choice" to "forced
busing" you could not.

Assuming the prior school choice program were reinstated, there would be no
"forced busing" as there was none before. Children were not "forced" to go to a
particular school before, their parents simply applied to the school of their
choice within the district.

If there were more applicants than spaces at particular school, then some
students would not get in and would instead get their second choice.

You keep calling this "forced busing" but never explain how it even remotely
comes close to that.

(Egregious/94159) > better learning experience by admitting 100 black kids with a ...

Egregious@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 06:33:00 -0600


> better learning experience by admitting 100 black kids with a 3.0
> GPA instead of 100 white kids with a 3.1,

If we're talking Affirmative Action at the college level, it doesn't
mean whites lose to blacks.  It means Asians lose to non-Asian
minorities.  White attendance is almost unchanged.

"the white acceptance rate would increase by roughly 0.5 percentage points.
Asian applicants would gain the most. They would occupy four out of every .ve
seats created by accepting fewer African-American and Hispanic students"

http://www.princeton.edu/~tje/files/Opportunity%20Cost%20of%20Admission%20Prefe
rences%20Espenshade%20Chung%20June%202005.pdf

".ve" is "five".

(Steppenwolf/94158) "You lawyers need to confir on your arguements. One of you says...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 06:10:00 -0600

"You lawyers need to confir on your arguements.  One of you says the law can be
discrimintory if there is a compelling reason.  The other one says these laws
are not discrimintory at all.  Which is it?
"

Both. Laws can be discriminatory if there is a compelling reason. The Seattle
public schools, at least, are arguably not even discriminatory.

"As far as what is overriding...I'll stick to my interpretation based on the
fact that several of you immediately used that as a reason to be ok with using
race as a factor in the selection process."

This makes no sense. We're just talking about the legal grounds for allowing
race to be used as one of many factors. Since we're discussing that very topic
right now, of course we'd "jump" to it, but that doesn't make it overriding.

"Using discrimination to combat
discrimination seems pretty 1984ish to me.  Not to mention it will never
end...not in 50 years, not in 150 years."

It's not _that_ bad when you consider that blacks and Latinos in this country
have major disadvantages compared to the average white. But I understand your
view here, and don't really disagree.

(Giraffe/94157) As an example of what, exactly?

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:47:00 -0600

As an example of what, exactly?

(MIKEY/94156) Dec 4, 2011 20:16 from Giraffe

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:42:00 -0600

Dec 4, 2011 20:16 from Giraffe
I think it benefits the educational experience to have a racial mix that
reflects the city as a whole and not just a single neighborhood.

As an example.

(MIKEY/94155) You lawyers need to confir on your arguements. One of you says ...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:34:00 -0600

You lawyers need to confir on your arguements.  One of you says the law can be
discrimintory if there is a compelling reason.  The other one says these laws
are not discrimintory at all.  Which is it?
As far as what is overriding...I'll stick to my interpretation based on the
fact that several of you immediately used that as a reason to be ok with using
race as a factor in the selection process.  Using discrimination to combat
discrimination seems pretty 1984ish to me.  Not to mention it will never
end...not in 50 years, not in 150 years.

(Giraffe/94154) Please show us where anyone has said that diversity is either th...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:23:00 -0600

Please show us where anyone has said that diversity is either the overriding or
"go to" criterion in public education. You have created a straw man: arguing
against a position no one has taken.

(Steppenwolf/94153) That's not fair. If diversity were an "overriding" concern, you ...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:07:00 -0600

That's not fair. If diversity were an "overriding" concern, you would see it
placed above all other concerns. That is clearly not the case. Maybe this is
semantics, but I think it's more accurate to call diversity "very important,"
not "overriding."

And again, how is something "racially discriminatory" when it's between two
equal options and doesn't cause racial segregation?

(Lochner/94152) It's not "the" overriding concern. I can't really explain why w...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 05:03:00 -0600


It's not "the" overriding concern.  I can't really explain why without
providing you with a 10-minute treatise on 14th Amendment law, but basically
there's a standard of review, and the state has to prove that the aim they're
reachign for is a compelling government purpose.

The court agreed that the state proved that diversity is a compelling
government purpose.  There are plenty of other purposes that are also
compelling, and that could justify racial discrimination, but they weren't at
issue in the case being quoted, and the constitution forbids the court from
issuing a decision on something not raised under the "cases and controversy"
clause.

So, no, you're wrong.

(MIKEY/94151) So the desire for diversity makes it ok to have racially discrim...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:50:00 -0600

So the desire for diversity makes it ok to have racially discriminatory
laws..based on your wording above.  That certainly sounds like diversity is the
overriding concern to me.  It certainly seems to be the "go to" issue expressed
by several of you..Giraffe included.

(Lochner/94150) That's not "overriding." Diversity is a compelling government...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:39:00 -0600


That's not "overriding."  Diversity is *a* compelling government purpose, it is
not *the* compelling government purpose.

That language is the standard of review for racially discrimanatory laws.  The
state has to prove that its racially discriminatory laws exist to fulfill a
compelling government purpose.

(MIKEY/94149) Apparently the Courts have:

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:19:00 -0600

Apparently the Courts have:
Dec 4, 2011 20:10 from Steppenwolf
In theory, there are two reasons:
1) To compensate for the historical privations against blacks;
2) Becaue having diverse viewpoints in schools is a good thing; in fact,
the Court has ruled it a "compelling government purpose."

(Giraffe/94148) Who said that diversity is the over riding concern? It is a fact...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:16:00 -0600

Who said that diversity is the over riding concern? It is a factor, among many.

(MIKEY/94147) So why have race enter the decision process at all? This idea t...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 04:03:00 -0600

So why have race enter the decision process at all?  This idea that diversity
is the over riding concern makes race the key factor.

(Lochner/94146) I reject the premise that you'll ever find two students who are ...

Lochner@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 03:53:00 -0600


I reject the premise that you'll ever find two students who are so
indistinguishably "equal" that race is the deciding factor.

Identical GPAs?  Did they take the EXACT same classes?  At the same high
school?  Did one guy's A's come from Jazz Choir and another come from AP
Physics?

C'mon.

(MIKEY/94145) I reject the arguement that "diversity" justifies discrimination...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:58:00 -0600

I reject the arguement that "diversity" justifies discrimination based on race.

(Steppenwolf/94144) Using race as a "factor" to increase diversity in two otherwise ...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:48:00 -0600

Using race as a "factor" to increase diversity in two otherwise equal schools.

(MIKEY/94143) How can you have discrimination that isn't negative?

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:46:00 -0600

How can you have discrimination that isn't negative?

(Steppenwolf/94142) In cases of true discrimination, MIKEY, I actually agree. I've b...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:34:00 -0600

In cases of true discrimination, MIKEY, I actually agree. I've been laying out
the case why it's not unconstitutional and it makes a certain amount of sense,
but overall, the ends doesn't justify the means.

On the other hand, Seattle's plan isn't actually discriminatory in any negative
sense.

(MIKEY/94141) "And if diversity is better

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 02:06:00 -0600

"And if diversity is better
for everyone's educational experience, that makes sense.

I disagree with this as a justification for discrimination based on race or any
other measure.

(Giraffe/94140) The schools in Japan reflect the racial/ethnic makeup of that co...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 05 Dec 2011 01:49:00 -0600

The schools in Japan reflect the racial/ethnic makeup of that country. That's
not true in many cases in US schools.

(Gislef/94139) I think he means that schools in Japan and China and Korea aren'...

Gislef@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 17:23:00 -0600

I think he means that schools in Japan and China and Korea aren't racially
diverse and yet supposedly do well in testing.

(Steppenwolf/94138) "I don't think anyone is "owed" anything. Most things worth hav...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 16:33:00 -0600

"I don't think anyone is "owed" anything.  Most things worth having are
earned."

Well, then, people with marginally better GPAs aren't losing anything by
getting into a school, since they weren't owed it. And if diversity is better
for everyone's educational experience, that makes sense.

"Students in Japan or China or Korea seem to do just fine with their diversity
"handicap"."

Say what?

(MIKEY/94137) I don't think anyone is "owed" anything. Most things worth havi...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:32:00 -0600

I don't think anyone is "owed" anything.  Most things worth having are earned.
Students in Japan or China or Korea seem to do just fine with their diversity
"handicap".

(Steppenwolf/94136) MIKEY:

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:25:00 -0600

MIKEY:

"ever become enough? and who decides that?"

Kinda hilariously, the Court figured it would take about fifty years. If you
think this off-the-cuff assessment is inappropriate for a legal argument,
unrealistic, and completely naive in respect to how this ruling would be used,
you're not alone.

"why does
diversity trump having the "best" admitted? How do you justify not admitting
student A who has higher test scores, etc to a program over student B who has
lower scores?"

If you believe that the whole student body will have a better learning
experience by admitting 100 black kids with a 3.0 GPA instead of 100 white kids
with a 3.1, the tradeoff makes sense. Or do you think the kids with the 3.1 are
somehow "owed" an education?

(MIKEY/94135) Giraffe> Is that what you look for in your doctor? One who has ...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:19:00 -0600

Giraffe> Is that what you look for in your doctor?  One who has attended a
school with a racial mix or do you look for the best doctor you can find?

(MIKEY/94134) So when does 1) ever become enough? and who decides that? and fo...

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:15:00 -0600

So when does 1) ever become enough? and who decides that? and for 2) why does
diversity trump having the "best" admitted? How do you justify not admitting
student A who has higher test scores, etc to a program over student B who has
lower scores?

(Giraffe/94133) I think it benefits the educational experience to have a racial ...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:16:00 -0600

I think it benefits the educational experience to have a racial mix that
reflects the city as a whole and not just a single neighborhood.

(Steppenwolf/94132) In theory, there are two reasons:

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 15:10:00 -0600

In theory, there are two reasons:

1) To compensate for the historical privations against blacks;

2) Becaue having diverse viewpoints in schools is a good thing; in fact,
the Court has ruled it a "compelling government purpose."

(MIKEY/94131) Why should they consider race at all?

MIKEY@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:39:00 -0600

Why should they consider race at all?

(Smoke Eater/94130) Except this system does not force integration. The article clea...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:15:00 -0600

Except this system does not force integration.  The article clearly states it
allows school districts to consider race when considering applicants for
schools...  That's a far cry from forced busing.

(Falcon/94129) Either that, or you're reading poorly. In any case, and to be c...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:09:00 -0600

Either that, or you're reading poorly.  In any case, and to be clear, I'm not
supportive of any system that forces racial integration through redistricting.
That was Seattle's original intent that was struck down by the SC, and is a
system that is enabled by the administration's new guidelines.  Oh, and I
wasn't a fan of forced busing for the same reason.

(Smoke Eater/94128 Forum Moderator) Ok, we've all been guilty of it in this thread, but the meta-dis...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:11:00 -0600

Ok, we've all been guilty of it in this thread, but the meta-discussion stops
now.

The point, not the poster, is on topic.

And, when someone challenges your point, calling it a personal attack *IS*
metadiscussion.

Deletions and warnings will follow.

(Steppenwolf/94127) Ah, so you were communicating very, very poorly? Because clearly...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 13:08:00 -0600

Ah, so you were communicating very, very poorly? Because clearly you must have
been, if both your clear words and the understanding of every poster
contradicts what you claim your position was.

I can accept that.

(Falcon/94126) And I further explained my postion, step. But, spot on with the...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:56:00 -0600

And I further explained my postion, step.  But, spot on with the "oh no you
di'ent" argument. :o)

(Steppenwolf/94125) No, you didn't. You said, ""So, back to the good ole days of for...

Steppenwolf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:54:00 -0600

No, you didn't. You said, ""So, back to the good ole days of forced bussing of
students."

That's not a similarity. That's saying it would happen.

I think Giraffe described your posts quite accurately.

(Falcon/94124) I pointed out how the two systems are very similar, giraffe. Th...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:45:00 -0600

I pointed out how the two systems are very similar, giraffe.  The only other
arguments, here have been, "on no you di'ent" and "Don't bust on my man, BHO".
:o)

(Giraffe/94123) Falcon: Just admit you overstated things. You claimed that we we...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:40:00 -0600

Falcon: Just admit you overstated things. You claimed that we were going to see
the return of forced bussing.  The article says nothing about bussing.  So you
moved the goalposts and claimed that the policy had the same aims as bussing
and therefore you are still right.

You don't win the prize for being right, but you do win the weasel prize!

Congratutions.

(Falcon/94122) I cited the article and a wiki-based explaination of busing. I ...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:40:00 -0600

I cited the article and a wiki-based explaination of busing.  I explained why I
felt the two were connected and why I thought the results would be the same.
The problem isn't the racial integration issue, S Eater. :o)

(Smoke Eater/94121) You insisted that the article indicates that this program is goi...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:33:00 -0600

You insisted that the article indicates that this program is going to result in
forced busing.  CL asked you to cite some facts.  You did not.

Then you said he was engaging in personal attacks against you.  That's
not answering the question.

(Falcon/94120) Interesting, especially during the holiday shopping season:

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 12:07:00 -0600

Interesting, especially during the holiday shopping season:
Minority Consumers Will Voluntarily Pay More for Goods and Services to Assert
Status, Study Shows
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/10/111020122315.htm
It has been well-documented that minorities are subject to discrimination in
product pricing and customer service. What is startling is the result of a new
study professors at the USC Marshall School of business in conjunction with
University of San Diego's School of Business Administration, that shows that
sometimes ill-treatment can make African-American consumers voluntarily pay
more for goods and services than they would normally, as well as pay more than
their Caucasian counterparts.

(Falcon/94119) I referenced the article. I referenced forced busing. Not agre...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:55:00 -0600

I referenced the article.  I referenced forced busing.  Not agreeing with me is
fine, but to say I'm not answering questions as to my position is silly.  "But
you keep going ahead and think I haven't."

(Smoke Eater/94118) No, you haven't, but you keep going ahead and think you have.

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:53:00 -0600

No, you haven't, but you keep going ahead and think you have.

(Falcon/94117) I have and I've posted references, S Eater. Go back and read. I...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:52:00 -0600

I have and I've posted references, S Eater. Go back and read.  I've more than
answered the question.

(Smoke Eater/94116) Then discuss a real issue and stop trying to make this something...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:51:00 -0600

Then discuss a real issue and stop trying to make this something it's not.  You
claimed that this is forced busing.  CL's calling you out ON that point, and
you're calling that a personal attack.  What are we supposed to think?

(Falcon/94115) lafsNot suprised that you don't agree, S Eater!

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:48:00 -0600

*lafs*Not suprised that you don't agree, S Eater!
I'm more than happy to watch this turn into everything about me, although, I'd
rather discuss actual racial issues here.

(Smoke Eater/94113) Wow...calling you out on what you said rather than you personall...

Smoke Eater@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:44:00 -0600

Wow...calling you out on what you said rather than you personally, and you
consider it a personal attack.  Got it.  Not taking your word as gospel desite
facts to the contrary is a personal attack.  Thanks for helping me understand.

(Falcon/94112) I agree with you.

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 11:21:00 -0600

I agree with you.
---
Good enough.
As for the rest, more personal attacks and squirming.

(Copper Lethe/94111) "Certainly, there is quite a bit more to the vote and who and wh...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 05:32:00 -0600


"Certainly, there is quite a bit more to the vote and who and who wasn't
supportive of the policy.  While I think that a "technicality" regarding the
vote was an easy way out, we don't know the real politics within the church
itself.  But go right ahead, and continue squirming everytime I post!"

I agree with you.

Yet, when the situation is reversed, when you have very little information, yet
we're talking about supporting racial diversity, rather than opposing
interracial relationships, you have no problem jumping to conclusions and
branding new guidelines as "forced busing."

Why are you quick to jump to conclusions with no facts when the issue is racial
diversity, but say "Hold on, don't jump to conclusions without facts" when the
issue is a ban on interracial relationships?

To be sure, I don't actually expect you to answer the question - in all my
years on this BBS, I've never seen you actually answer a question - but I'd be
curious to know why.

(Falcon/94110) lafs Hold onto your shorts, there CL! (actually, surprised you...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 03:56:00 -0600

*lafs* Hold onto your shorts, there CL! (actually, surprised you didn't tie
Hitler into this).
Certainly, there is quite a bit more to the vote and who and who wasn't
supportive of the policy.  While I think that a "technicality" regarding the
vote was an easy way out, we don't know the real politics within the church
itself.  But go right ahead, and continue squirming everytime I post!

(Copper Lethe/94108) "I don't think there is enough information to really get the who...

Copper Lethe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 03:13:00 -0600


"I don't think there is enough information to really get the whole story,
here."

Are you kidding me?  You just got done criticizing new guildelines for school
districts based on an article that had very little actual information in it,
and half of "facts" that you have are in direct contradiction with the actual
guidelines in a case where blacks and whites may be integrated - but in a case
where a church had a vote to ban interracial marriage, you say "I don't think
there's enough info?"  That's facsinating.

(Giraffe/94107) "he hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a peri...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 02:39:00 -0600

"he hottest places in hell are reserved for those who, in a period of moral
crisis, maintain their neutrality."   -- JFK, paraphrasing Dante

(Falcon/94106) I don't think there is enough information to really get the whol...

Falcon@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 02:28:00 -0600

I don't think there is enough information to really get the whole story, here.
Personally, I think the pastor should have headed off the vote to begin with,
but again, not sure how this type of thing is conducted within the
organization.  Certainly, it is a step forward to dismiss the policy and move
on.

(Giraffe/94105) So why didn't they vote? Only six voted against the resolution.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 04 Dec 2011 02:26:00 -0600

So why didn't they vote?  Only six voted against the resolution.