History

(Gespalder/27185) Feb. 15, 1898

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 18:00:00 -0600

Feb. 15, 1898
The U.S.S. Maine exploded, thrusting the U.S. into a war with Spain

(QUITTNER/27184) The world according to me would have to take into account that a...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 16 Feb 2012 03:00:00 -0600

The world according to me would have to take into account that according to
historians human nature hasn't changed, and cannot be changed, despite all the
many problems encountered by human interactions and the consequent well-being
or other wise of at least the majority of the population. And there is a BIG
difference beteen "should" and "must". ^otherwise^ And, to repeat, no persons
should live in famine areas, nor visit there. In a world according to me
everybody at all times would be happy and satisfied.  OH YEAH? [Laughs]

(Peccavimus/27183) Really? That should be the major point of history?

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 09:57:00 -0600

Really?  That should be the major point of history?

I look forward to your summing up of all other areas of human endeavor in a
simple pithy "should" statement.  It'll totally simplify intelletual pursuits
to have the WORLD according (to?) QUITTNER.

(QUITTNER/27182) The major point of history should be that we should learn from h...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 14 Feb 2012 02:58:00 -0600

The major point of history should be that we should learn from history what
works and what doesn't, what can be done and what can't. But unfortunately
after so very many centuries since historic records have got to be available
major communities/societies all over this planet are still in a mess. Who was
it who said that (or similar) the only thing people learn from history is that
they don't learn from history. Too bad! BOO-HOO!

(Rian/27181) Chalk it up to human nature, and arange to be the one doing the ...

Rian@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 04:22:00 -0600

Chalk it up to human nature, and arange to be the one doing the exterminating
rather than being the one exterminated.

Yes, that's sarcasric, and intended to be.  But aside from Jesus Christ and
Gandhi (and that's presuming you accept/ believe the Christ material) there
hasn't exactly been a lot of success in the promotion of hippy
'peace-love-kumbaya.'  Which is one of my problems wit religion, but that's for
another forum.  So.. really?  It's a bit of an idiotic - or naive, which
perhaps isn't different in this case - question.  All one can _really_ do is be
prepared to combat it, without promoting it.

(QUITTNER/27180) That story of what the Germans did to "surplus" people is very s...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Feb 2012 03:08:00 -0600

That story of what the Germans did to "surplus" people is very sad, and
unfortunately there are many other stories, all of them true, about genocides
that happened all over this planet as told by hisorians. Religions that
includes a teaching of members to be "nice" to "their neighbors" do not,
unfortunately, have enough influence on their members and even their leadr to
behave "properly", meaning humanely without violence against others. What can
be done about that?

(Gespalder/27179) Am watching The World At War and it is interesting that for the ...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 12 Feb 2012 11:07:00 -0600

Am watching The World At War and it is interesting that for the episode
entitled Genocide they interviewed some SS Officers who seemingly got away with
their crimes by being prosecution witnesses at Nuremberg.

SS General Karl Wolff it seems lied on the stand (at the least he withheld
information) about what he knew about the deportation of Jews so he served
little time after the Nuremberg Trials. He was tried in Germany later and again
served little time. He had been Himmler's right hand man and then was assigned
to Italy where he became the SS General in charge of Italy.
In the show The World At War (episode: Genocide) he admitted to witnessing the
execution of Jews and described the splatter of brains on Himmler's coat) but
during his trials he said he knew nothing of the Holocaust. He was also in
charge of the transportation of Jews to camps like Treblinka.

SS Major Wilhelm Hottl is also in this episode. From 1939 until the end of the
war in Europe, HC6ttl was employed almost without interruption by Germany's
central intelligence and security agency, the RSHA. The RSHA was made up of
seven main departments, including: the Sicherheitsdienst (SD) or Security
Service; the Sicherheitspolizei (SiPo) or Security Police, composed of the
Gestapo (Secret State Police) and the Kriminalpolizei (Kripo) or Criminal
Police. In 1944 HC6ttl became the Ausland-SD's Acting Head of Intelligence and
Counter Espionage in Central and South-East Europe. In March he was assigned to
Budapest, where he served as second in command to ReichsfC<hrer-SS Heinrich
Himmler's SS representative in Hungary, and as political advisor to Hitler's
ambassador there, Edmund Veesenmayer, who reported to Berlin, for example, on
the large-scale deportations in 1944 of Jews from Hungary.
Hottl did mention that Himmler said this:
"Approximately 4,000,000 Jews had been killed in the various concentration
camps, while an additional 2,000,000 met death in other ways, the major part of
whom were shot by operational squads of the Security Police during the campaign
against Russia"
I can find no info that he served any time after the Nuremberg Trials.

SS Lance Corporel Richard Boch (he was in the Waffen-SS) was stationed at the
Auschwitz Concentration Camp, specifically to the guard battalion. His duties
performed were mostly perimeter defense and manning watchtowers, thus his
direct contact with prisoners was limited. He witnessed an actual gassing and
told the story on The World At War.
After World War II, Richard Boch was cleared of crimes against humanity and in
fact commended for helping Jewish prisoners survive Auschwitz. In the 1970s, he
was made an honorary Auschwitz survivor as recognized by Jews and other
survivors of the camp.

While not in the show I just watched, Hans Munch
(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_MC<nch) is interesting. He wa acquitted of
Crimes Against Humanity (see the section Trial in Poland) yet later in life he
admitted to conducting experiments on prisoners (see the section entitled
Controversies)

(Gespalder/27178) http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/02/05/us-researchers-discove...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:55:00 -0600

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/02/05/us-researchers-discover-new-species-c
rocodile-dubbed-shieldcroc-dating-back-5/?intcmp=trending

U.S. researchers discover new species of crocodile dubbed 'Shieldcroc' dating
back 95 million years

Published February 05, 2012
| FoxNews.com

A new species of prehistoric crocodile that dates back 95 million years ago has
been identified by a University of Missouri researcher.
The extinct creature, nicknamed "Shieldcroc" due to a thick-skinned shield on
its head, is an ancestor of today's crocodiles. Its discovery provides
scientists with additional information about the evolution of crocodiles and
how scientists can gain insight into ways to protect the species' environment
and help prevent extinction, according to the University of Missouri website.

"Aegisuchus witmeri or 'Shieldcroc' is the earliest ancestor of our modern
crocodiles to be found in Africa," said Casey Holliday, co-researcher and
assistant professor of anatomy in the MU School of Medicine. "Along with other
discoveries, we are finding that crocodile ancestors are far more diverse than
scientists previously realized."
Shieldcroc is the newest discovery of crocodile species dating to the Late
Cretaceous period, approximately 95 million years ago.
According to the university website, Holliday identified Shieldcroc by studying
a fossilized partial skull specimen, which was discovered in Morocco and held
by the Royal Ontario Museum of Toronto for several years before Holliday
analyzed it.
Holliday determined, by studying blood vessel scarring on the bone, that the
crocodile would have had a structure on top of its head, resembling a shield.
The dents and bumps on the bone indicate veins delivered blood to a circular
mound of skin, something never before seen in a crocodile. He said the shield
was likely used as a display structure to attract mates and intimidate enemies
and possibly as a thermo-regulator to control the temperature of the animal's
head.
The Shieldcroc fossil studied by Holliday and Nick Gardner, an undergraduate
researcher at Marshall University, is being returned to the Royal Ontario
Museum, where it will be put on display later this year.
Click for more on this story and to see the video of the 'Shieldcroc' skull
specimen at the University of Missouri website

(Hroswitha/27177) I'm not sure I want to go the Hitler path. It's too much of a w...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 06:35:00 -0600


I'm not sure I want to go the Hitler path.  It's too much of a whipping post
for all ills, and everyone gets compared to Hitler.  Which somewhat proves my
point, but still.

It's the lure of tradition and its use to make arguments in the contemporary
era that I need.  When we watch a series like Downton Abbey, firmly set in the
second decade of the twentieth century, why are we so drawn to it?  It's
nostalgia for a way of life none of us experienced or could remember, and which
few of us would want.  What is that show saying about culture, class, loyalty,
lesse majesty, etc.?  I LOVE period films and shows, but as a historian, I know
how little reality can be found there.

How do we use appeals to the past, then?  I wonder if it's really all that
different from the way they were used in the middle ages.  Hmmmmmmm.

(QUITTNER/27176) Tradition can be a powerful crutch for Conservatives. But they n...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 30 Jan 2012 03:03:00 -0600

Tradition can be a powerful crutch for Conservatives. But they no longer use
horse-drawn carriages, and use modern electronic gadgets nevertheless. Probably
tradition could be said to be "the best way" of doing things in the past; but
is it still "the best" these days/years/centuries?

(Mean Mr Mustard/27175) I've long felt that WWII--the "Good War"--has been cited as an a...

Mean Mr Mustard@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 17:07:00 -0600

I've long felt that WWII--the "Good War"--has been cited as an apologia for any
and every military event since.  Nicholson Baker published a lengthy meditation
on this in the New Yorker last year--I could dig it up if you feel it would be
relevant.

(Gwynn/27174) As a sort of opposite to the FF, the New Deal gets hammered for ...

Gwynn@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 11:53:00 -0600

As a sort of opposite to the FF, the New Deal gets hammered for just about any
societal ill imaginable, by most people. You often get historical appeals about
war, e.g. we had to stop Hussein/OBL, just like we had to stop Hitler. In fact,
wasn't there some thing back in the first gulf war where they had this woman
rescuing a baby, and it turned out that instead of being a nurse saving a baby
from Hussein's evil hospital bombings or whatever, it was a member of the
Kuwaiti royal family? I seem to remember some mention of Hitler in connection
with that, though I could be mistaken.

Oh, for another flipside thing, you could compare Democrat use of JFK and
Republican use of Reagan. Though maybe you're looking for something further
back in history.

(Hroswitha/27173) In some work of my own I'm currently writing, I have an argument...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 29 Jan 2012 10:40:00 -0600


In some work of my own I'm currently writing, I have an argument about history
and the uses of history which I'm proving in a medieval context, but I'm
looking for some ideas about how contemporary society utilizes history as
justification.

Here's my medieval example - kings of the French looked to historical
chronicles to justify innovation.  Newness was an enemy; when they wished to
change how they ran the kingdom, they turned to historical accounts maintained
in the abbey of Saint-Denis just north of Paris.  There, the monks would either
find or invent precedence to lend legitimacy to the kings they served.  I can
give you references and examples, but none of this is particularly
controversial and has been argued and accepted in general for 150+ years.

What I seek is contemporary accounts that can be established in a paragraph or
two, no more, for use as a closing argument.  I thinking about how modern
political debate in the US hinges on this question of the Founding Fathers.  If
we can be said to have anything like saints in this country, the cult of the
Founding Fathers comes close.  Civic saints, if you will.  We make appeals to
the FF and their intentions all the time, as if they were precient and able to
make all possible allowances for future generations and societies.  Strict
constitutional interpretation relies heavily upon this idea - that somehow, if
we merely stick to how we believe the fathers would have wanted us to create
rules and live, our judicial and legislative decisions will be better and lead
to a better society.  Innovation, again, is an enemy.

There may be better examples, such as how film and novels make use of
historical periods to create arguments about our modern society.  Thus the film
Braveheart had little really to do with Scottish independence, and much more to
do with this question of freedom from government intervention and the
curtailment of personal liberty.

Any ideas?

(River/27172) The weather required for a (relatively) safe helicopter "landing...

River@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 04:15:00 -0600


The weather required for a (relatively) safe helicopter "landing"* on the
summit of Everest is orders of magnitude better than the weather required for a
(relatively) safe human ascent.  I wouldn't exactly qualify either as "safe,"
however.

Unless the pilot and the passengers were breathing in a completely closed
(i.e.:  pressurized) environment, they would quickly fall comatose under 1/3
sea level oxygen deprivation.  Even climbers who used bottled gas only receive
the relative benefit of being a few thousand feet lower in altitude.  In other
words, those who wish to ascend by helicopter would most likely have to go
through the same acclimatization regime as those who ascend the peak by foot. 
If you're going to go through all the acclimatization, you might as well just
climb the thing.  With Everest, climbing either of the two standard routes in
today's commercialized environment, altitude is the great leveler, not
necessarily technical climbing ability.

At any rate, flying to the top of Everest is a really really bad idea. 
Helicopter rescues anywhere above base camp are extremely rare and dangerous. 
Very few helicopters are able to climb that high, and many that do are
exceeding their manufacture's limits when they do so.  There simply isn't
enough air to bite into in order to maintain lift.  It's bad enough that
corpses and countless oxygen bottles litter the natural beauty of the mountain;
we don't need to be adding a few helicopter wrecks annually.

Needless to say, having a hotel up there is also a terrible idea.

Though the highest in the world, most serious mountaineers regard Everest as
the easiest of the 8000 metre peaks to climb, simply because it has been so
commercialized that even novice climbers can have their hands held all the way
to the summit.

*I put landing in quotes because the helicopter wouldn't exactly be able to
land.  In 2004 (maybe '05 or '06) a helicopter did indeed touch its skids on
the peak of Everest, but the rotors had to be kept running at full tilt.  Any
helicopter which turns off its rotors up there probably won't be taking off
again.

(QUITTNER/27171) Recently there was a program on TV about the history of climbing...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 22 Dec 2011 03:39:00 -0600

Recently there was a program on TV about the history of climbing the highest
mountain, Everest. It would be much easier, weather permitting, to have a
helicopter deposit from and collect from the peak any tourists who want to have
photographic proof that they were there! If there would be enough tourists,
then open up a hotel up there! ^deposit to^

(Peccavimus/27170) Walmart.

Peccavimus@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 05:42:00 -0600

Walmart.

(QUITTNER/27169) But, again, where did the protesters get their weapons from?

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 20 Dec 2011 02:56:00 -0600

But, again, where did the protesters get their weapons from?

(DesCartes/27168) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 04:00:00 -0600

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohamed_Bouazizi

(And, of course, once that happened, people in other Arab countries took to the
streets.)

(DesCartes/27167) One of the key moments that triggered the Arab Spring happened j...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 03:54:00 -0600

One of the key moments that triggered the Arab Spring happened just over a year
ago, when a Tunisian vendor set himself on fire in protest of police
harassment.

I'm still not sure exactly how things went from a single incident like this to
mass protests, but in Tunisia, it happened pretty quickly. Mohamed Bouazizi set
himself on fire on Dec. 17 (and died on Jan 4), and the Tunisian government
collapsed on Jan. 14.

(QUITTNER/27166) A similar question on how did "The Arab Spring" got started? How...

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 19 Dec 2011 03:13:00 -0600

A similar question on how did "The Arab Spring" got started? How did the
dissidents in Tunesia, Lybia(sp?) ans Syria get their weapons, enough to battle
their (mighty?) governments?

(Giraffe/27165) Take a bunch of unemployed, educated, discontented people, add F...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 17 Dec 2011 03:47:00 -0600

Take a bunch of unemployed, educated, discontented people, add Facebook and
Twitter, and stir.

(DesCartes/27164) It may be a bit early to consider this history, but I was thinki...

DesCartes@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 16 Dec 2011 18:39:00 -0600

It may be a bit early to consider this history, but I was thinking back on it,
and I'm just wondering how the Occupy Wall Street got started. It couldn't have
just been spontaneous. Was it planned? How did people decide to do it?

(Calhoun/27163) Speaking of speculative fiction, anyone here read Steve Berry? ...

Calhoun@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 10 Dec 2011 08:00:00 -0600

Speaking of speculative fiction, anyone here read Steve Berry?  He usually
picks some mystical/mystrerious historical subject like the Third Secret of
Fatima or the Amber Room and write around it.  The guy is a good writer, but I
must admit I don't much care for his politics.  For example, in his world, the
Third Fatima Secret from the BVM was that abortion was a woman's choice, and
another book dealing with the Templars showed Christ was human and his status
as the Son of God was a shame from the word go.  Did enjoy his books dealing
with the Amber Room and the fate of the last Tsarist family.

(Hroswitha/27162) I'm writing it, but not as a speculative fiction text. I'm writ...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 08 Dec 2011 00:58:00 -0600


I'm writing it, but not as a speculative fiction text.  I'm writing about the
interdependency of the abbey of Saint-Denis and the Capetian crown, and how the
abbots of that monastery invented history (to serve their own purposes) and a
new architectural/artistic style while manipulating their chronological
accounts to support a general theme: the king is the king because he supported
St.-Denis and the abbey of Saint-Denis.  They created heroes and villains,
followed by the artwork and symbolic pieces intended to drive home their
points.  Along the way, they made the kings of France into vassals and offered
freedom from servitude to any household able to offer a token of vassalage to
the abbey, created one of the most elaborate hospitals in Europe, and made
their own abbots into regents of the crown itself.

None of the above is news to anyone who studies medieval France, but my work
will offer insight into how it happened and the general motivations behind the
production of the various books, forgeries, artistic works, etc.

(Giraffe/27161) Well then, write that book!

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 16:06:00 -0600

Well then, write that book!

(Hroswitha/27160) Um, yeah. Pseudo-Turpin DID have that sort of effect.

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 15:35:00 -0600


Um, yeah.  Pseudo-Turpin DID have that sort of effect.

Start with this fact - the Pseudo-Turpin document was translated from the Latin
and into French no fewer than 8 times after 1215.  Yes - that date is
significant.  Battle of Bouvines, and the era when Philip II became Philip II
Augustus.

As the result of the Pseudo-Turpin, kings of France paid 4 bezants of gold
every year as a vassal of the abbey of Saint-Denis.

The Vexin Banner of Saint-Denis became known as the Oriflamme, and from there,
the royal battle standard of the kings of France, because of this text.

The Pseudo-Turpin also served as a cultural touchpoint, as tastes in Europe
moved from fantastical tales of derring do expressed in poetry to prose form,
developing the first demands for plausible and (potentially) accurate history.
It was the first popular history in the vernacular.

Local nobles of France used the Pseudo-Turpin in making claims of independence
from the kings of France, and they were the ones who commissioned the
translations.

This document exists in more surviving copies than any other text from that
century, which should be an indication of its important in its day.

The Donation of Constantine, however, once accepted as legitimate, was rarely
read or consulted, and did nothing further.  The Pseudo-Turpin was a living
document which served the purposes of many.

Just think about this - the KING OF FRANCE became a legal vassal to a abbey and
to the saint it served in this text.  It started a fashion and competition
among other abbeys - Westminster attempted to create its own forged set of
credentials as it struggled against local bishops; abbeys in Germany claimed to
possess the bones of St.-Denis in a bid for independence from local princes.
In its time, this text was far more important, more widely read, more
thrilling, and every bit as fraudulent as the Donation of Constantine.

The story in it is more interesting as well - a romantic venture by Charlemagne
into Spain, battles, wars, adventure...  The Donation of Constantine is one of
many thousands of faked deeds.  And most of those were exposed as fake around
the same time.

The eleventh century was an era fraught with forgeries - can't spit without
hitting them.  One of my academic advisors received death threats from
Cistercian monks when she exposed two of the primitive foundation charters of
their order as having been faked up to 50 years after they claim to have been
written.  And many were accepted as true, and many were exposed around the
fifteenth century - exposing medieval forgeries was a passion of certain smug
Renaissance intellectuals.

That modern Americans only have heard of the Donation of Constantine is just a
sign of how little most of us have been taught about the middle ages, and how
much we still don't understand. If you want some references on forgeries, what
they meant at the time, how they were uncovered, and what forgery seemed to
mean to the people of the middle ages (who, when they discovered forged texts,
prosecuted the culprits), I can give you references.

(Giraffe/27159) But for a couple of centuries the Donation was believed to be tr...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:33:00 -0600

But for a couple of centuries the Donation was believed to be true and that
belief was used to influence real political change.  Pseudo-Turpin didn't have
the same sort of impact, did it -- even if you find it more interesting as a
document.

(Hroswitha/27158) Please - NOT Dan Brown. Anyone BUT Dan Brown. To say that Dan ...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 14:29:00 -0600


Please - NOT Dan Brown.  Anyone BUT Dan Brown.  To say that Dan Brown is an
author would be the same as saying a crow is a musician - his prose grates on
my ears just as much.  The man never understood actual medieval history, made
up what he didn't understand, then passed off the mess of regurgitated crap to
the American reading public (an admittedly small group) as palatable reading
fodder.

As for the Donation of Constantine - it's one of honest-to-God thousands of
known forgeries dating from that period.  It's not unusual, except that Valla
made it the exemplar of all medieval forgeries.  If you ask me, the Pseudo-
Turpin document is far more interesting.

(Giraffe/27157) For Dan Brown's next speculative historical conspiracy novel, he...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 07 Dec 2011 02:25:00 -0600

For Dan Brown's next speculative historical conspiracy novel, he should explore
the Donation of Constantine. Or if someone else wants to write it, that might
even be better. But I think the topic is fertile ground for medieval chicanery
and political intrigue. That is all.

(Lammam P Yrruf/27156) They're both nicknames for the American Longrifle. They're the ...

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 03 Dec 2011 14:18:00 -0600

They're both nicknames for the American Longrifle.  They're the same thing.

(Giraffe/27155) Is there a difference between a Kentucky and Pennsylvania rifle?

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 28 Nov 2011 01:16:00 -0600

Is there a difference between a Kentucky and Pennsylvania rifle?

(Gespalder/27154) Which was better, the Kentucky or the Pennsylvania Rifle?

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 27 Nov 2011 15:10:00 -0600

Which was better, the Kentucky or the Pennsylvania Rifle?

(River/27153) The French AMX-13, first produced in 1952, is still in service i...

River@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 17:00:00 -0600


The French AMX-13, first produced in 1952, is still in service in a number of
countries, although France is not one of them.  The Soviet T54/55 first rolled
off the production lines in 1947.  Many countries still use the tank today.

There may be others.

Both tanks, of course, as well as the T-34, went through several modifications
throughout the long production phase.

(Gespalder/27152) The T-34 was developed in 1941 and in service until 1996.

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 26 Nov 2011 16:48:00 -0600

The T-34 was developed in 1941 and in service until 1996.
Can any other tank beat that service record?

(Gespalder/27151) Well, not all gold mines were shut down. I saw during my searche...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 11:25:00 -0600

Well, not all gold mines were shut down. I saw during my searches that some
were allowed to remain open.
No idea what reasoning allowed this though.
I cannot find the text of that order which might explain this.

(Giraffe/27150) Okay, so "Executive Order 208" is erroneous? That's what I figu...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 22 Nov 2011 02:07:00 -0600

Okay, so "Executive Order 208" is erroneous?  That's what I figured. Until
about the FDR era, Executive Orders were not uniformly tracked or numbered. At
some point someone went back and retroactively numbered Executive Orders
beginning in the Lincoln administration. Not surprisingly, there were many
Executive Orders during the Civil War, so 208 would almost certainly be during
one of Lincoln's terms, and absolutely not during one of FDR's terms.

The order to shift production from precious to strategic metals during war time
doesn't seem that surprising. WWII mobilized the entire nation, not just those
in the armed forces.

(Gespalder/27149) I found this

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 15:37:00 -0600

I found this

1942
The U.S. government closed down the gold mining industry as a non-essential,
war-related industry (War Production Board's Order No. L-208.)  This was an
attempt to move the mining labor force into mining metals needed for the war
effort.

http://www.tchistory.org/TCHISTORY/Gold_Timeline.htm


1945
At the end of WW2, U.S. gold mining was reinstalled.  Many California gold
mines had flooded, caved in and were in a general deteriorated condition,
requiring prohibitive capital needs to reopen.


So it was a govt. order but it came from the War Production Board

and from a court case

On October 8, 1942 the War Production Board promulgated Limitation Order L-208,
7 F. R. 7992, which closed down all gold mining operations in the United States
and its territories. The mining of gold was deemed by the said War Production
Board as industrial activity incapable of contributing to the war effort and in
competition with defense production for labor and materials.

http://ftp.resource.org/courts.gov/c/F2/236/236.F2d.195.14889.html

and

http://oralhistory.unr.edu/WWIIMine.html

Mining and World War II

World War II had a great influence on mining in Nevada.B  While restrictions on
gold mining had begun almost immediately after Pearl Harbor, the War Production
Board issued Limitation Order L-208 in October of 1942, effectively closing the
nation's gold mines all together. The government's intent in shutting down gold
mines was to focus mining on strategic metals and minerals such as lead, zinc,
copper and tungsten, which were needed for the war effort. Gold and other
precious metals such as silver were deemed "non-strategic." While many
individual miners managed to find employment in strategic-metal mines, the
closing of gold and silver operations had a significant impact on the
communities that relied on them for jobs as well as support of local
businesses.


I cannot find the text of the Limitation Order despite many searches.

(Giraffe/27148) It's just that when I look at FDR's Executive Orders from 1941 a...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 21 Nov 2011 14:51:00 -0600

It's just that when I look at FDR's Executive Orders from 1941 and 1942, they
are all numbered over 8000.  Where is Executive Order 208 on this list?
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/1941.html
http://www.archives.gov/federal-register/executive-orders/1942.html

(Vanity/27093) This is why it helps to know your dates. The Lusitania was sunk...

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 08:12:00 -0600

    This is why it helps to know your dates.  The Lusitania was sunk on May 7,
1915, killing over one thousand passengers.  It carried as part of its cargo
cartridges for small arms, not military ammunition. It had no mounted or
unmounted guns and could not possibly be classed as a ship of war.
    The United States did not go to war over the Lusitania.  The United States
declared war on Germany on April 6, 1917, nearly *two years* after the sinking.
The cause for war was not the Lusitania, but Germany's refusal to cease its
campaign of unrestricted submarine warfare, which was a direct threat to
American shipping and to United States neutrality.  You can hardly expect
another power to remain neutral while you are busy sinking its ships.

(Gespalder/27092) So, not only was the Lusitania carrying ammunition it had mounts...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 17 Jan 2011 05:20:00 -0600

So, not only was the Lusitania carrying ammunition it had mounts for deck guns
as well (hidden under coils of rope).

Just another reason she was a legit target for the German submarine

Churchill KNEW that she carried ammo and that she had mounts for deck guns and
he KNEW she was now a legit target. He also knew that if she was sunk he could
drag the US into WWI

(Gespalder/27091) This show, Paris 1919, sure does show how most of the allies fro...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 14 Jan 2011 10:23:00 -0600

This show, Paris 1919, sure does show how most of the allies from WWI assured
there would be a WWII.
France, for example, was warned that her harsh demands would cause Germany to
find a way to rise again to seek revenge.
Clemenceau was warned about that but he poo-pooed it.

Their actions would paralyze Germany for generations.
Wilson compromised all of his principles giving people what they wanted just so
he could have his League of Nations, actions he even admitted would make some
happy while angering others.
The French assumed that the man who shot Clemenceau was either a German or a
Russian when in fact he was a French anarchist.

The U.S., France, Italy and Britain (The Big 4) are arguing amongst themselves.
Italy leaves the conference, Japan and Belgium threaten to walk out and China
is unhappy.
Germany and Russia were not invited.

John Maynard Keynes was there and he rejected the large amount of money ($300
billion) to be imposed on Germany. When the allies wouldn't budge he resigned
from the commission.

Germany scuttled her fleet rather than let the allies have it. This was seen as
a final act of treachery.

(Gespalder/27090) Pickett's Charge

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 10 Jan 2011 04:45:00 -0600

Pickett's Charge

Some sources say Lee ordered it while others say Pickett approached Lee with
the idea. Any proof as to which version is right?

(Gespalder/27089) Finally heard someone say something that makes 100% sense regard...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 09 Jan 2011 06:01:00 -0600

Finally heard someone say something that makes 100% sense regarding the Kennedy
assassination.
The guy said it has completely taken over people's lives
His advice?
Stay away from it, it is toxic.

(Knight Of Shadows/27088) Hittites> I'm trying to do some research on the Hittites and won...

Knight Of Shadows@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 13 Dec 2010 06:53:00 -0600

Hittites> I'm trying to do some research on the Hittites and wonder if anyone
knows of any books that are particularly good.

(Vanity/27087) Remember!

Vanity@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 05 Nov 2010 02:24:00 -0500

    Remember!
    Remember the fifth of November -- Gunpowder treason & plot.
    I know no reason why Gunpowder treason should ever be forgot!

    Guy Fawkes, and his companions below,
    Contriving Old England's overthrow,
    With thirty-six barrels of gunpowder, did contrive
    To blow up the King, the Church, and Parliament alive.

(Calhoun/27086) In both the 67 and 73 Arab-Isreal wars, the Israelis found unfir...

Calhoun@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 30 Oct 2010 18:43:00 -0500

In both the 67 and 73 Arab-Isreal wars, the Israelis found unfired rounds in
both Egyptian and Syrian tanks.  What does that tell you?

(Giraffe/27084) Civil War question: I heard it claimed that of the several thous...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 29 Oct 2010 03:39:00 -0500

Civil War question: I heard it claimed that of the several thousand muskets and
rifles recovered from the battlefield at Gettysburg, the vast majority were
still loaded, often with multiple rounds, leading to the conclusion that many
of the soldiers were not firing their weapons, either out of fear or reluctance
to kill. True?

(Gespalder/27083) This week

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 06 Oct 2010 03:39:00 -0500

This week
in history
1957: "Leave it to Beaver" premiered on CBS.
1968: Apollo 7, the first manned Apollo mission, was launched.
1982: The musical "Cats" opened on Broadway.


Famous birthdays this week
10/4: Actress Susan Sarandon
10/5: Musician Steve Miller
10/10: Quarterback Brett Favre

(Giraffe/27082) The point of this book though is that the timeline that has come...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 03:57:00 -0500

The point of this book though is that the timeline that has come down to us is
incorrect.

(River/27080) The Titanic was not stopped by the iceberg. The iceberg ripped ...

River@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 03:46:00 -0500


The Titanic was not stopped by the iceberg.  The iceberg ripped a huge gash in
the side of the vessel.  The Titanic sailed by.  The Captain went to the bridge
and ordered an all stop.  Or so I've heard.

(QUITTNER/27079) Was that before or after the Titanic was stopped by the iceberg?

QUITTNER@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 03:44:00 -0500

Was that before or after the Titanic was stopped by the iceberg?

(River/27078) That's odd. Every historical account of the sinking of the Tita...

River@rss.iscabbs.com — Thu, 23 Sep 2010 03:12:00 -0500


That's odd.  Every historical account of the sinking of the Titanic with which
I am familiar indicates that Captain Smith ordered a full stop after reaching
the bridge.

(Giraffe/27077) Rather intruiging new information about the Titanic sinking: two...

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 16:13:00 -0500

Rather intruiging new information about the Titanic sinking: two human errors
have been covered up for nearly a century. The first caused the ship to hit the
iceberg instead of miss it, and the second caused the ship to sink much faster
than it needed to.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20100922/lf_nm_life/us_britain_titanic_book

(Gespalder/27076) Zoe does have a BA in the field (she has her own website that li...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 13:53:00 -0500

Zoe does have a BA in the field (she has her own website that lists it as does
the bio on History.com) but she is also an actress and has done other stuff as
well.

I didn't look up the bios of the other fellows.

Alice was said to be dehydrated by the medic.

(Hroswitha/27075) The first woman of the fellows left because Hawass clearly prefe...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 22 Sep 2010 08:54:00 -0500


The first woman of the fellows left because Hawass clearly preferred Zoe over
her.  I did see that episode.  She was upset partly because she witnessed the
slaughter of a baby camel by some bedouin traders when they ran out of food in
the desert.  She was also unhappy about the way Hawass left her up top all the
time but Zoe, who was clearly unqualified to be there, got to be down in the
digs.  It was really rather obvious and disturbing.

As for Alice, hard to say why she collapsed.  Possibly dehydration, but she may
have a condition they didn't reveal.  Too bad two of the three female fellows
on the show were such poor candidates.  Derek, the male fellow who was also
left out of most finds, should have been there - he knew his stuff and had a
degree of experience.

But my point remains - Hawass himself is not often on site for any of these
finds or digs, but he is notorious for taking credit for them.  He shows up for
the cameras, but the really heavy lifting is done by others whose names get
left out of the reports and whose faces never appear on camera.  Hawass sets
policy and agrees to allow digs or shut them down.  He doesn't do the work
himself.

(Gespalder/27074) Now I don't think they ever said why the first girl left (if so ...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Tue, 21 Sep 2010 01:52:00 -0500

Now I don't think they ever said why the first girl left (if so everyone I know
who watches the show missed it) and the other girl left because she could not
stand up to her man and be more independent. The 3rd girl is more comfortable
underwater (and she didn't know to stay hydrated?). At least the guy finally
asked the other guy how to get on the radar of Dr. Hawass.

And he did give credit to the folks where they took that group photo.

But I see your point that when they take the photos for the press he is onsite.
I would guess this is because he is so well known.

(Hroswitha/27073) Gespalder - I am aware of all these things, and have been enjoyi...

Hroswitha@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 20:21:00 -0500


Gespalder - I am aware of all these things, and have been enjoying the Chasing
Mummies program.  I think, though, I've noticed something different from you.

I see a rock star flitting from find to find, all of which have been opened and
supervised by other people in the field who rarely if ever make it on camera.
He stays at each dig for a day, an hour, perhaps a couple of days.  Then, off
to Houston for a symposium hosted by former first lady Laura Bush.  Back to
Alexandria or Cairo, where he is the guest of honor at some other symposium.
Then, a meeting with individuals who want to start a new dig and have to
persuade Dr. Hawass to allow it.  He doesn't devote his undivided attention to
anything longer than a very short time.

Admittedly, this is largely the result of a reality show format.  But Hawass is
both the director of Egyptology and antiquities in Egypt and minister of
culture for the nation.  Those are HUGE jobs - he does more long-distance
supervision than hands-on work.

Which is why I would say that perhaps not pushing him to retire is a mistake.

His statements regarding Jews and Jewish culture in Egypt have been
unfortunate.

His extradinary sexism toward the women of this program is also interesting to
watch.  While he happily opens the door to women in the field, he clearly
offers preference to those who gasp breathlessly over his finds, exclaim over
his cleverness, beg him to explain everything to them, and are fond of very
tight jeans.  The cuter they are, the more time they get from him.  And the one
poor male fellow on the program is always left to cool his heels on the
surface.

Interesting.

(Gespalder/27072) I don't know if you are watching the show but there have been so...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Mon, 20 Sep 2010 19:58:00 -0500

I don't know if you are watching the show but there have been some new tombs
discovered. Hawass is also restoring the Avenue of the Sphinxs (found a
cartouch of Cleopatra V) and he decided to NOT open the place where the falcons
are mummified (I forget its name) due to a presence of cobras.
He was there when they raised the obelisk (credit was given to the underwater
team). He is restoring the pyramids (Step Pyramid is getting a major
restoration) and doing work at the tomb of Set I

See: http://newsone.com/world/associated-press/egypt-finds-evidence-of-unfinish
ed-ancient-tomb/

Egypt Finds Evidence Of Unfinished Ancient Tomb

He is doing an underwater mapping project at
Aswan as well.

He has found new tombs

http://www.redorbit.com/news/science/1869258/archeologists_find_new_tombs_in_eg
ypt/

Archeologists Find New Tombs In Egypt

Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities announced Sunday that archeologists have
discovered 57 ancient Egyptian tombs, most of which contain an ornamental
painted wooden sarcophagus with a mummy inside.
Twelve of the tombs were found to belong to the 18th dynasty which ruled Egypt
during the second millennium B.C. Some of the tombs date as far back as 2750
B.C., according to the council.


At the bottom of both pages I listed are article to more finds

Just a few things Dr Hawass is doing. I believe he was kept on due to all the
work he is doing.
As for the Brits or French returning things, I doubt they ever will (see the
Elgin Marbles)

(Gespalder/27069) Watching Chasing Mummies on History it was good to see that Dr Z...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Wed, 08 Sep 2010 21:01:00 -0500

Watching Chasing Mummies on History it was good to see that Dr Zahi Hawas won't
have to retire (they have a mandatory retirement age in Egypt and only the
President could extend his time on the job).
He has done so much for Egyptian Archaeology that it would have be a shame had
he been forced to retire.

(Lammam P Yrruf/27036) He doesn't know the difference. Just smile and wait for him to ...

Lammam P Yrruf@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 09 May 2010 07:43:00 -0500

He doesn't know the difference.  Just smile and wait for him to leave.

(Giraffe/27035) That's not history. That's just random factoids.

Giraffe@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 09 May 2010 06:38:00 -0500

That's not history. That's just random factoids.

(Gespalder/27034) Last British soldier killed in WWI was killed 2 minutes before t...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sun, 09 May 2010 01:42:00 -0500

Last British soldier killed in WWI was killed 2 minutes before the Armistice
Last French sldier killed was killed 10 minutes before the Armistice (all men
killed on the 11th had their death dates listed as the 10th)
Last Canadian to be killed before the Armistice died 2 minutes before the
Armistice.
The last American to be killed before the Armistice died at 10:59

(Gespalder/27033) Am watching a 2007 episode of Digging Up The Trenches, about the...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Sat, 08 May 2010 16:48:00 -0500

Am watching a 2007 episode of Digging Up The Trenches, about the excavation of
the WWI trenches near Ypres, Belgium and the one presenter said it was only 3
years since the last man died who was in a home for his whole life suffering
from Shell Shock, "He never got over being shelled".

Wow! Third Battle of Ypres, the exact death toll has never been confirmed but
68,000 men are believed to have been wounded or killed.

In this episode they found 3 French soldiers (they believe they were French
Algerians) who are thought to be victims of the first chlorine gas attack.
They also showed a mass grave for tunnel diggers and the spot where some 800
Germans were vaporized on a ridge by mines (amonol (sp?) filled tunnels that
were detonated).

(Gespalder/27032) That is the guy!

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 07 May 2010 17:35:00 -0500

That is the guy!
His name was only mentioned, not shown on screen.
His commander was tried and executed for the actions of his troops in Malaya
and Singapore.

(Calhoun/27031) eI think you are referring to Col. Tsuji. He was never tried ...

Calhoun@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 07 May 2010 17:23:00 -0500

eI think you are referring to Col. Tsuji.    He was never tried for war crimes,
primarily because he disappeared after the war.  He later wrote a book about
his command of Japanese forces in Malaya several years after thw war, then
disappeared again in the early 60s.  There were rumors he went to North Vietnam
to assist them in their war against the US.

(Gespalder/27030) Was Col. Sugi (sp?), the Japanese Col. who developed a taste for...

Gespalder@rss.iscabbs.com — Fri, 07 May 2010 16:07:00 -0500

Was Col. Sugi (sp?), the Japanese Col. who developed a taste for eating the
livers of his foes, ever tried after WWII?